sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I think another issue is that kids these days don't play enough sport, they're stuck inside with a playstation and the tv and their parents don't let them out because of the peados.
Foreigners to blame for English players being shite!
- Thread starter Relahni
- Start date
football's another form of televisual entertainment rather than something you actively do - either playing or watching at the ground.sleaterkinney said:
At the risk of sounding like an old git, I bloody told everyone this would happen, about 15 years ago if not more.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
It's the amazing thing about Margaret Thatcher - you could be forgiven for thinking she wasn't elected by increasing majorities on three occasions, instead she just imposed these terrible policies in a despotic manner on an abject UK public.
Fwiw, I can't buy the school playing grounds argument without independent and authoritive evidence – not least because I see the incredible contribution around me of community rugby and cricket clubs in the coaching and playing of those sports. Superb quality coaching of kids of all ages.
It might be different for football, but it shouldn’t imo. And the kids that play are the ones who turn up, it’s not forced on every single kid.
Fwiw, I can't buy the school playing grounds argument without independent and authoritive evidence – not least because I see the incredible contribution around me of community rugby and cricket clubs in the coaching and playing of those sports. Superb quality coaching of kids of all ages.
It might be different for football, but it shouldn’t imo. And the kids that play are the ones who turn up, it’s not forced on every single kid.
sleaterkinney said:
This is part of it, but to what extent is it that different anywhere else? I don't remember there being loads of kids playing footy in the street when I lived in France, for instance.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
I love Tottenham fans. Without them people like me would have no reason to get out of bed.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schoolsports/story/0,,1292271,00.html
http://archive.theargus.co.uk/2001/9/29/171010.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/702537.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1420648.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...3.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/05/09/ixportal.html
http://archive.theargus.co.uk/2001/9/29/171010.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/702537.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1420648.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...3.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/05/09/ixportal.html
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
bluestreak - the first two links tell me the Blair gov in 2001 and 2004 was telling the public it was thinking about stopping the policy. What I derive from that is not clear.
Please, make a point and support it with quoted evidence. I am willing to understand.
Please, make a point and support it with quoted evidence. I am willing to understand.
stupid kid
...
DRINK? said:how many goals did they concede in those finals again?
Let us not forgetthat David May and Greening have champions league winners medals....Carrager is not all that, can see why the pool fans adore him though he is not world class not in a million years
Your argument lacks sufficent logical intergrity and relevance to support your conclusion.
Termite Man
zombie flesh eater
bluestreak said:
Damn right . If we aren't getting players good enough to be picked for premiership teams it's because the system isn't producing them . Why blame the foreigners if you can't produce the players that are as good as them !
because sometimes the kids need to have an opportunity to make their way into the game as they develop. Expecting them to be able to dislodge the quality of players in Prem sides at the age of 17/18 is largely unrealistic and after a couple of years they drop down the leagues and don't always persevere to make the grade.Termite Man said:
Of course, some Prem sides like to fill their youth teams with foreigners as well. So the English kids get even fewer opportunities even at that level.
The system's fucked from many angles, there isn't one single reason.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I saw 2 teams of under 8's playing on a full-sized pitch last Sunday. Crazy to see them trying to take corner kicks and get it near the box - that's obviously emblamatic of the absurdity.
Personally, I'd look at that and related issues before academies.
Personally, I'd look at that and related issues before academies.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
So the answer is to reduce the quality so more will be able to break through?JTG said:
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
What is your argument then?. You are saying that home-grown players cannot make it because the quality required by the premiership is too high, are you not?JTG said:
Termite Man
zombie flesh eater
sleaterkinney said:
He's saying the young players who have not developed fully are pushed out by the foreigners so they don't end up getting the experience at the highest level to develop fully !
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
But they get experiece at the appropriate level for them?
sleaterkinney said:
how is a 17 year old, who isn't of the standard that say Rooney was at that age but is nevertheless pretty talented, supposed to get regular opportunities against the best when there are so many decentish players with more experience ahead of them?
It doesn't necessarily mean reducing the quality, it means creating more opportunities for these players to learn against the best.
I dunno, mandatorily reduce squad sizes and have a quota of places reserved for under 20s in those squads. The present system obviously reduces opportunities for youngsters to develop. Look at goalkeepers for the most extreme example.
kained&able
Here for the football.
but keeprs are shit untill they get till about 25 well known fact!
dave
dave
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I don't get that argument at all, players natually migrate to play at their appropriate ability level - thank goodness we have so many levels of ability available, must be a nightmare seeing all your best players going abroad to play.JTG said:
Termite Man
zombie flesh eater
London_Calling said:
players improve by playing better opposition , if they are reduced to playing weaker opposition then they won't develop as well as they can !
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
But hang on, everyone should play against better opposition - walk me through that would ya?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Benetiz was slated in the summer for saying that the big teams should have 'B' teams in the lower divisions so that their young players can develop, I think it's a good idea. It works in Spain.JTG said:
Termite Man
zombie flesh eater
London_Calling said:
Geez . If you want kids to develop you need to give them experience , you won't get fully developed kids if they don't play the best opposition . It's pretty fucking simple . I'm not saying everyone should be given a season in the prem just to give them experience but but if your going to spend money on developing grass roots football to get good youngsters they then need a chance to get decent experience .
Termite Man
zombie flesh eater
sleaterkinney said:
I think it's a shite idea bacause it fucks over the teams in the lower divisions that the "B" teams will replace . Whats wrong with the loan system ?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
How would it fuck them over, the crowds would get a chance to see a young rooney etc, the standard of play would improve.Termite Man said:
Loaning is shite, the club have no interest in developing the player and he's away from decent coaching.
kained&able
Here for the football.
balls
Gmart
Well-Known Member
Quota system
Good article in The Observer by Paul Wilson. He was talking about the proposed quota system:
To paraphrase he was talking about the three English-born Arsenal players who decided to leave the club for pastures new:
Ashley Cole
David Bentley
Steve Sidwell
He pointed out that if we had a quota system then Arsenal would have been forced into a position of having to 'desperately hang on' to these players.
Why would this situation improve the current 'problem'?
Would it be in anyone's interest to have this situation?
If Wenger has certain values which the current crop of English players don't live up to, why should we force him to retain them?
That's the reality of the situation. The Quota system is once again another simple answer for the simple people, which would do nothing and which might make things worse.
For the record I think that the reason why the English players are so far behind is because of our culture, which is a difficult thing to solve (or prove). I remember one player stating that as a kid in England you get absolutely slaughtered by your team mates if you make a mistake and thus the tendency is towards being safe rather than trying the bit of skill that might crack a teams defense open.
Does anyone remember Joe Cole while he was at Westham? He was always getting into trouble for trying something fancy. Now he doesn't bother coz it's just not worth the bother if it goes wrong!!
Good article in The Observer by Paul Wilson. He was talking about the proposed quota system:
To paraphrase he was talking about the three English-born Arsenal players who decided to leave the club for pastures new:
Ashley Cole
David Bentley
Steve Sidwell
He pointed out that if we had a quota system then Arsenal would have been forced into a position of having to 'desperately hang on' to these players.
Why would this situation improve the current 'problem'?
Would it be in anyone's interest to have this situation?
If Wenger has certain values which the current crop of English players don't live up to, why should we force him to retain them?
That's the reality of the situation. The Quota system is once again another simple answer for the simple people, which would do nothing and which might make things worse.
For the record I think that the reason why the English players are so far behind is because of our culture, which is a difficult thing to solve (or prove). I remember one player stating that as a kid in England you get absolutely slaughtered by your team mates if you make a mistake and thus the tendency is towards being safe rather than trying the bit of skill that might crack a teams defense open.
Does anyone remember Joe Cole while he was at Westham? He was always getting into trouble for trying something fancy. Now he doesn't bother coz it's just not worth the bother if it goes wrong!!
My starting point is that the Premiership is the English premier league and should contain a majority of English players. Adopting a rule that each team had to have a minimum of five England-eligible players would not deprive us of seeing top foreign players, because it still leaves six spots in each team for foreign players if the manager thought it appropriate. The problem is that so many of the foreign players are so mediocre and don't contribute to the Premiership in the way that, for example, Ronaldo and Drogba do. Take, from my club, Stilian Petrov. Not a bad player, but hardly a great one. Why is he often playing in the Villa first team rather than Craig Gardner?
To me, the problem with the present position is that at many clubs, young players' development is delayed or stifled between the ages of say 17 and 21 because they are spending so much time playing for the reserves and sitting on the bench. For example, will Walcott achieve his full potential at Arsenal playing his present bit-part? I doubt it. There are a number of other players that could be cited as examples, for example Greening who was never able to hold down a regular place in the Manchester United first team and didn't move elsewhere for regular first team football for some time.
If the players' development is stifled because they can't get regular first team football, I think that there must inevitably be a substantial impact on how well England play.
I can understand why fans of the top four clubs oppose the idea of quotas. Nor do I think the quotas are some sort of panacea for England's ills .... some of the other ideas put forward on this thread have a lot of merit as well. But I think they would go some way towards encouraging the top clubs to develop their English players rather than simply look abroad on the grounds that it is easier.
To me, the problem with the present position is that at many clubs, young players' development is delayed or stifled between the ages of say 17 and 21 because they are spending so much time playing for the reserves and sitting on the bench. For example, will Walcott achieve his full potential at Arsenal playing his present bit-part? I doubt it. There are a number of other players that could be cited as examples, for example Greening who was never able to hold down a regular place in the Manchester United first team and didn't move elsewhere for regular first team football for some time.
If the players' development is stifled because they can't get regular first team football, I think that there must inevitably be a substantial impact on how well England play.
I can understand why fans of the top four clubs oppose the idea of quotas. Nor do I think the quotas are some sort of panacea for England's ills .... some of the other ideas put forward on this thread have a lot of merit as well. But I think they would go some way towards encouraging the top clubs to develop their English players rather than simply look abroad on the grounds that it is easier.
kained&able
Here for the football.
aylee said:
and what would do about the fact that it is illegal to limit the numbers of european players that are allowed to play in the country.
dave
