Foreign fighters in Israeli army

[Fullyplumped]

Who are you to tell sovereign nations what they "should" or "should not" consider to be serving their national security?

I am Fullyplumped. Hear me roar.

I think it is ridiculous that these governments should apply collective punishment to Israel and to people who have visited that country when we want to go and visit the people who have the misfortune to live there under their usually vicious and cruel regimes.

 

[DownwardDog]

Downwarddog: Perhaps one nation might have been lax at one time, but the three nations you list are very stringent so forgive me for doubting what you say.

I had literally hundreds of stamps in my passport they probably just never saw the Israeli ones. No Iranian immigration official is going to waste his cigarette by taking time to diligently search 2 x 48 page passports at 4:30am. Cursory inspections were also the order of the day in UAE and Oman.

 

[ZAMB]

usually vicious and cruel regimes.

You're talking about Israel here, right?????????

 

[david dissadent]

Who are you to tell sovereign nations what they "should" or "should not" consider to be serving their national security?

no one which is lucky I am not telling them anything I am commenting on it. But it is curious you seem to be suggesting I have no right to comment.

So you consider the president of Iran a criminal or is there some flaw in your "logic" here?

salaam.

Under German law holocaust denial is a crime. One that some suspect the president to be guilty of, but then this is a red herring so I will withdraw the example of a criminal and instead produce it as such, if the german state wishes to ban an undesirable individual it can, yes? But that does not condone a nation banning everyone who has ever visited a nation. A reason for this must be found and the national security excuse is tissue thin so why does some states ban all people who have ever visited Israel (well have an Israeli stamp on there passport) from entering there territory. It does seem to be discriminatory.

 

[Aldebaran]

But it is curious you seem to be suggesting I have no right to comment.

I didn't read the tone of you rposting as merely "comment" but as a justified demand.

Under German law holocaust denial is a crime.

It is, and so it is in Belgium (and I believe in The Netherlands and some other European countries).
Some time ago I saw an interview with the president of Iran in a German weekly (Der Spiegel) in which he did not deny anything, only suggested that the "figures" were over-estimated.
In essence he said that not everyone in the world is bound to be informed on every aspect of Germany's history, and that if the Holocaust did take place, like the interviewer confirmed him it did, then that everyone could only be served with further investigation into the amount of its victims. (That is nothing new, is it? How many Europeans and even Germans claim that the Holocaust never took place or else claim that the "figures" were over-estimated?)

So you think the German goverment is not aware of it that Der Spiegel published such an interview rather shortly before they refused him entrance? I think they most certainly knew.

if the german state wishes to ban an undesirable individual it can, yes?

Of course. It is not such a good public relation move and does not make them so very credible outside Germany when they ban a president of a sovereign nation. (If you reason just a little bit logical you see that Iran very easily got what it wanted to provoke. )

A reason for this must be found and the national security excuse is tissue thin

So again: You are to decide what a nation should consider a security threat? Maybe you could do a step into the real world of the MENA. Do you have an idea how many Arab looking, perfectly Arabic speaking undercover agents of the Mossad are running around there already?

You sound as if you want to make the claim that Israel lets everyone in. You may have that dream, reality is slightly different, isn't it.

salaam.

 

[skaboy]

I take aldebarans side here.100%.

I also urge those of you who dont take his side to read manufacturing consent or ESPECIALLY pirates and emperors old and new by noam chomsky to understand the actions of those states who ban people who have been to israel.

Oh yeah and by the way,arab nations are not the only culprits in banning people from entering because of them being to certain countries-i am now not allowed to travel to the US because i have been to cuba, and whatever applies to arab countries & israel, it certainly is not anywhere near the same situation as the US and Cuba!

 

[david dissadent]

only suggested that the "figures" were over-estimated.

that is holocaust denial. If your quibling by a few hundred thousand your just being petty. If your quibbling the figures by several million you either have some ground shaking evidence or are deliberately stiring for political reasons. Lacking any ground breaking research he is stirring anti semitism. You dont want to believe it fine.

So again: You are to decide what a nation should consider a security threat? Maybe you could do a step into the real world of the MENA. Do you have an idea how many Arab looking, perfectly Arabic speaking undercover agents of the Mossad are running around there already?

What utter bilge. Of course mossad have agents who can pass for Arabs. But ummmm Mossad also can get them Arab passports. The entire security argument falls flat there.

You sound as if you want to make the claim that Israel lets everyone in. You may have that dream, reality is slightly different, isn't it.

salaam.

No you want to hear that in what I have said. I have made almost no comment on Israels admitions policy. Why do you want me to say that?

 

[david dissadent]

I also urge those of you who dont take his side to read manufacturing consent

How would manufacturing consent lead you to those conclusions. It is a critique he wrote (together with edward herman) of the US media and how it serves the agenda of the neo liberal elite. It barely mentions the middle east. (Some mention I guess but hardly covering the sort of dirty tricks of the CIA, Mossad et al).

Perhaps you mean "The Fatefull Triangle"?

 

[skaboy]

pirates and emperors old and new is partly manufacturing consent applied to the middle east,mostly about the role of the world media in the middle east, e.g you hear about "foreign fighters" on the palestinian side but not the israeli side as this thread suggests.

So manufacturing consent is a good book to read as well as(or along side of) pirates and emperors old and new.

 

[Fuchs66]

you hear about "foreign fighters" on the palestinian side but not the israeli side as this thread suggests.

Maybe because the "foreign fighters" in the IDF follow the same tactics and ethos as their "native" colleagues and that foreign fighters on the side of the Palestinians tend to be the ones that are so radicalised that they blow themselves up in crowded cafes. I see what you're saying but I think your comparing two different entities, to quote myself from another thread:

Not wanting to get dragged into the Isael/Pal argument as I find both sides pretty much fucked up but why all the fuss about Jews from other countries fighting with the IDF?

Firstly there are (whether you like it or not) some major differences between the IDF (a national military force fighting under one flag) and the rag tag collection of organisations fighting in Iraq under several more or less extreme ideologies.

Second the "foreigners" fighting in the IDF (esp. those from Eastern Europe) do so, often with the plan of settling there and acquiring Israeli nationality, how many of those in Iraq wish to obtain an Iraqi passport?

and Thirdly, why all the fuss about foreign nationals fighting for another country? It isn't exactly new is it? Look at the Spanish civil war and the Gurkhas (and in more recent times) Commonwealth soldiers in the British army. Sorry but cant understand what the beef is.

OK I used the Iraq example but the same applies to Pal.

 

[Aldebaran]

that is holocaust denial.

In your weird kind of reading it obviously is.

He didn't gave "numbers". He said that it is only normal that not everyone "has" to be informed on Germany's history. He added that if then the Holocaust happened as a historical fact, then everyone is served by any further investigation, in it.
Are you informed on the history of my region and in its details? If not, must I follow your "logic" and take that as proof that you deny we have a history?

What utter bilge. Of course mossad have agents who can pass for Arabs. But ummmm Mossad also can get them Arab passports. The entire security argument falls flat there.

Nothing falls flat on its face but your "argumentation".
(hint: watch less movies and TV serials and enter reality.)

No you want to hear that in what I have said.

Correction: I explained how I read it. That is not "wanting", that is telling you how you come across.

I have made almost no comment on Israels admitions policy. Why do you want me to say that?

Isn't it obvious why? Again: Do you believe anyone can run in and out Israel as they wish and when they wish?

salaam.

 

[david dissadent]

In your weird kind of reading it obviously is.

He didn't gave "numbers". He said that it is only normal that not everyone "has" to be informed on Germany's history. He added that if then the Holocaust happened as a historical fact, then everyone is served by any further investigation, in it.
Are you informed on the history of my region and in its details? If not, must I follow your "logic" and take that as proof that you deny we have a history?

As I said earlier if your quibbling by a few 100 000s its churlish and if your quibbling by a few million you had better have some bloody good evidence. I am aware of no leaders saying WWII needs research to prove it happened it is a well substantiated fact. I know of virtualy no other world leader saying there is any need for further research to determine if the Holocaust existed or if its scale was exagerated. He is just stirring trouble and insinuating that it is exagerated.
Ahmadinejad: Holocaust a myth

Nothing falls flat on its face but your "argumentation".
(hint: watch less movies and TV serials and enter reality.)

"You you watch to much TV I am right you poo poo head" that is not an argument. Tell me how denying access to a country by anyone who has an Israeli stamp on there passport creates a serious impediment to the CIA and Mossad from inserting its agents into that country. Explain to me how CIA and Mossad agents cannot get forged passports. It is just the same as denying people who visit Cuba the right to visit America it serves no realistic security purpose.

Again: Do you believe anyone can run in and out Israel as they wish and when they wish?

salaam.

No I dont, so put your strawman to bed sir.

 

[ZAMB]

that is holocaust denial.

There is more than one sort of 'holocaust' denial. People talk of it as if it was a solely Jewish thing - while the Jews were not even the first victims. Communists and the disabled were the first victims of the camps, and Poles, Serbs, Gypsies, Religious groups, Coloured people, homosexuals etc. also died. The jews were the largest single group, but there were about the same number of people in these other groups who were murdered.

When I first learned about the holocaust, I remember I thought, 'if the Germans had got to the UK, that could have been me' as I have been disabled since I was 13. But, when I learned about it at school, or talked to people about it, they only talk about the Jewish victims, which I think is a bit disrespectful to the millions of others who suffered the same fate. I see the same thing here - IMO anyone who talks about the holocaust as a purely Jewish thing is practicing 'holocaust denial' of a different sort.

Hitler had all sorts of undesireables in his master race theory - and he was happy to exterminate anyone who didn't fit in with his plans.

 

[Fuchs66]

There is more than one sort of 'holocaust' denial. People talk of it as if it was a solely Jewish thing.

but if you ever go to the Auschwitz or Belsen sites for example you will find they are not exclusively memorials to the Jews killed there and that other groups do get a mention. I agree the media does tend to concentrate on the Jewish victims but then again the media isn't always the unbiased source of information that it should be is it now.

 

[rachamim18]

Aldeberan: Having a US passport does NOT prevent a person from entering Iran, Libya, or Cuba. All three of the latter nations have a great deal of conflict with America. Israel is ofeered blanket refusal not because of securirty issues but because of racism [for lack of a better word].

In fact, in light of Iranian Intel having manpulated the haji into a frenzy, causing countless deaths it would dseem to many that Iran presents more of a direct threat to the Saudis than Israel ever has. Yet one sees Iranians entering and leaving. A Jew cxannot even step foot onto Saudi soil.

Then your more authentic feelings come into play as you begin with the Hlocaust Guilt. Haven't heard that one beofre, have we?

"Been to Gaza lately?" I have actually. Before the Israeli blockade however, when thery still had electricity, etc. They were launching no less than 6 seven foot shells every day of the week. That is, when they were not busy butchering each other and scrambling to victimise the foolish NGOs who stayed.

"Ahmadinejad did not deny the Holocaust took pl;ace, just that the figures were questionable." I suggest that you actlly look into the subject and then maybe you willk see things very differently. Yhe man DID in fact deny it happened many times. Just in the last "World Anti Zionisim Conference" alone he made that very same claim.

Skaboy: I do not believe that having been to Cuba as a non-American citizen would create any problems at all for you.
David: Well said on your analogy concerning banning nations as opposed to individuals.

Nino: Again, I WAS BORN IN AMAERICA, you are naturalised citizen. BIG DIFFERENCE. There is no preferrntial treatment as many Isrealis jockying for papers here will tell you.

ZAMB: The only people talking about the Holocaust as a solely Jewish entity are non-Jews. Jews are fully aware of the magnitude of that great crime. Were to ever av ail yourself to a Holocaust mnuseum you would see exhibitts deidicated to non-Jewish groups who also perished. As to why Jews receiive the most attention with regards to the event, the Jews were by far the largest single group victimised.

 

[dylanredefined]

And the niceist victims .Too many europeans would think gipsies communists ,homosexuals, trade unionists jehovahs witnesses and consientious objectors to list a few of the holocausts victims deserved to be in the camps even now if a new hitler started with peado scum he would be saluted .

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Again, I WAS BORN IN AMAERICA, you are naturalised citizen. BIG DIFFERENCE. There is no preferrntial treatment as many Isrealis jockying for papers here will tell you.

No, there is no difference at all. My father was a serving member of the US armed forces and like every dependent child of a US serviceman born overseas, I was naturalised because that is the law under the local forces agreements (or whatever they're called). The fact that I was naturalised is absolutely irrelevant. My mother was British but the US would not allow me dual citizenship based on matrolineal descent. But I don't expect you to wrap your head around that rather, you will use the usual line of "OFF TOPIC" to get out of jail...or put forward another specious argument like the one above.

You could become President of the US if that is what you wanted. I am barred from that because of the peculiar attitude towards citizenship that exists in the US. Indeed, I have more right to become president than someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger.