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For Serious Capitalists

Yes, indeed they may. I believe Ms Patterson provides an excellent explanation:

"The Educational Octopus

Every politically controlled educational system will inculcate the doctrine of state supremacy sooner or later. . . . Once that doctrine has been accepted, it becomes an almost superhuman task to break the stranglehold of the political power over the life of the citizen. It has had his body, property and mind in its clutches from infancy. An octopus would sooner release its prey. A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state. --Isabel Paterson, The God of the Machine (1943) ":eek:

Oh look, it's an internet geek yet to lose their virginity!
 
Businessmen are not automatically capitalists.

Most businessmen can not defend their ventures from a philosophical standpoint.

KBR, ENRON, and Halliburton , etc are not capitalists. They depend on government intervention for their profits.

Most businessmen don't even consider it from a philosophical standpoint.

Coming up with that list of companies is quite frankly bollocks. ENRON never got any government intervention, they went spectacularly tits up all on their own and their business was nothing but a huge fraud.

Halliburton and KBR do make a huge amount of money from govt contracts but if the US govt is stupid enough to pay them then why not? Anyone who signs a cost plus contract is a fucking idiot.

Thousands of companies don't get any govt support. Mine certainly doesn't. If you know how we can please let me know.
 
elements of the post-depression New Deal could be considered marxist. Farming co-ops and the like.

But does it "still rule our nation"? The poster was suggesting that
a semblance of social democratic measures means that a country is thoroughly "Marxist". I have no time for such absolutist nonsense.
 
ENRON never got any government intervention, they went spectacularly tits up all on their own and their business was nothing but a huge fraud.

Enron: Under-Regulated or Over-Subsidized?


Enron provides a perfect example of the dangers of corporate subsidies. The company was (and is) one of the biggest beneficiaries of Export-Import Bank subsidies. The Ex-Im bank, a program that Congress continues to fund with your tax dollars, essentially makes risky loans to foreign governments and businesses for projects involving American companies. The Bank, which purports to help developing nations, really acts as a naked subsidy for certain politically-favored American corporations- especially corporations like Enron that lobbied hard and gave huge amounts of cash to both political parties. Its reward was more that $600 million in cash via six different Ex-Im financed projects.

One such project, a power plant in India, played a big part in Enron's demise. The company had trouble selling the power to local officials, adding to its huge $618 million loss for the third quarter of 2001. Former president Clinton worked hard to secure the India deal for Enron in the mid-90s; not surprisingly, his 1996 campaign received $100,000 from the company. Yet the media makes no mention of this favoritism. Clinton may claim he was "protecting" tax dollars, but those tax dollars should never have been sent to India in the first plac
 
a semblance of social democratic measures means that a country is thoroughly "Marxist". I have no time for such absolutist nonsense.

That those measures comport with the interim steps (Planks) suggested by Mark in his Communist Manifesto is, I guess, just a pure coincidence:


The 10 PLANKS stated in the Communist Manifesto and some of their American counterparts are...

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Americans know this as misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Americans call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Americans call it government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process. Asset forfeiture laws are used by DEA, IRS, ATF etc...); see also the Mexican Repatriation Program

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Americans call it the Federal Reserve which is a privately-owned credit/debt system allowed by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking.

6. Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State.
Americans call it the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and Department of Transportation (DOT) mandated through the ICC act of 1887, the Commissions Act of 1934, The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, and Executive orders 11490, 10999, as well as State mandated driver's licenses and Department of Transportation regulations.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Americans call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture… Thus read "controlled or subsidized" rather than "owned"… This is easily seen in these as well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Americans call it Minimum Wage and slave labor like dealing with our Most Favored Nation trade partner; i.e. Communist China. We see it in practice via the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.
Americans call it the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136. These provide for forced relocations and forced sterilization programs, like in China.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Americans are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, but are actually "government force-tax-funded schools " Even private schools are government regulated. The purpose is to train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" . These are used so that all children can be indoctrinated and inculcated with the government propaganda, like "majority rules", and "pay your fair share". WHERE are the words "fair share" in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or the Internal Revenue Code (Title 26)?? NO WHERE is "fair share" even suggested !! The philosophical concept of "fair share" comes from the Communist maxim, "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need! This concept is pure socialism. ... America was made the greatest society by its private initiative WORK ETHIC ... Teaching ourselves and others how to "fish" to be self sufficient and produce plenty of EXTRA commodities to if so desired could be shared with others who might be "needy"... Americans have always voluntarily been the MOST generous and charitable society on the planet.
 

Enron: Under-Regulated or Over-Subsidized?


Enron provides a perfect example of the dangers of corporate subsidies. The company was (and is) one of the biggest beneficiaries of Export-Import Bank subsidies. The Ex-Im bank, a program that Congress continues to fund with your tax dollars, essentially makes risky loans to foreign governments and businesses for projects involving American companies. The Bank, which purports to help developing nations, really acts as a naked subsidy for certain politically-favored American corporations- especially corporations like Enron that lobbied hard and gave huge amounts of cash to both political parties. Its reward was more that $600 million in cash via six different Ex-Im financed projects.

One such project, a power plant in India, played a big part in Enron's demise. The company had trouble selling the power to local officials, adding to its huge $618 million loss for the third quarter of 2001. Former president Clinton worked hard to secure the India deal for Enron in the mid-90s; not surprisingly, his 1996 campaign received $100,000 from the company. Yet the media makes no mention of this favoritism. Clinton may claim he was "protecting" tax dollars, but those tax dollars should never have been sent to India in the first plac

Fair enough, assuming thats correct I was wrong. It still means you picked 3 companies out of thousands...the vast majority of businessess don't get any subsidies.
 
That those measures comport with the interim steps (Planks) suggested by Mark in his Communist Manifesto is, I guess, just a pure coincidence:


The 10 PLANKS stated in the Communist Manifesto and some of their American counterparts are...

Yes, yes all very undergraduate, well done. So in conclusion, and if I may be so bold to precis your wonderful odyssey, any state intervention in an economy - and I think it's actually impossible for the two to be kept apart, you don't need to trawl through US legal history to prove that - means that we're all under the yoke of Karl Marx Esq. Well, good luck with your taxless, stateless society, I'm sure that it'll all work out.
 
Fair enough, assuming thats correct I was wrong. It still means you picked 3 companies out of thousands...the vast majority of businessess don't get any subsidies.

This is precisely the point. Some businesses do receive whilst most don't. And of those in the former group that don't already operate a natural monopoly (where, for example a case could be made for regarding them as part of the 'commons' - water supply, transport infrastructure etc), those being assisted by the govt tend to form monopolies themselves, massively distorting the market and leading to all manner of ills, including revolving doors between the political and crony industries, the socialisation of corporate debt and so on.
 
The anrcho-communist Faure? And Hobbes, the strongest defender of the authoriatarian state? Righty ho. Liberatarian (as in US libertarian) you say?
 
The OP is defenidng liberatarianism in the US sense, he's asked you for a better guide than Ayn Rand. You said that you're writing it - or that if you did it would be based on the above writers, two of whom massively contradict each other. I was wondering how you intend to do it.
 
Maybe it's my poor eyesight, but re-reading the OP, I can't see where the OP asks for anything?

I don't see any inherent (or otherwise) contradiction in taking from Hobbes and Faure?
 
Maybe it's my poor eyesight, but re-reading the OP, I can't see where the OP asks for anything?

I don't see any inherent (or otherwise) contradiction in taking from Hobbes and Faure?

The orginal poster rather than the Original post. This very afternoon it aksed you

So who is your favourite advert for libertarianism and freedom of the individual?

..and this was the post that you were replying to.

I'd still like to know how you intend to integrate anarcho-communism of Faure with with the authoritarian state of Hobbes. Becasue on first glance it doesn't look like a goer.

You can't see any contradictionsd between those two positions?
 
Oh. Right. Answered that.

As for Hobbes and Faure - have you read Leviathan? If you have, you'll understand, and if you don't...well...you wouldn't want "lights out no-one home" doing hard sums for you, now would you?
 
Oh. Right. Answered that.

As for Hobbes and Faure - have you read Leviathan? If you have, you'll understand, and if you don't...well...you wouldn't want "lights out no-one home" doing hard sums for you, now would you?

Yes, i have read it. Hence my wondering at how you could imagine that a clear, explicit and sustained defence of authoritarian states could be marshalled in the defence of libertarianism (whether you mean US style ultra-free market capitalism or european anarchist-communism). Perhaps you could explain?
 
Don't have time to do your homework for you. Seems you haven't read Leviathan, or perhaps you've just googled/Wiki'd it like you usually seem to?

"And a nod to Hobbes."

Social contract theory which becomes game theory when we remove the historical context and the muddy waters of a monarch. Try Wolfson as well. But then again - they don't do that for GCSE, do they?
 
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