Of course we could switch over our energy supply to renewables, invest in Maglev trains and similar tech and build green tech houses. Once we have done that though, how do you address the problem with developing nations pumping out huge amounts of crap into the environment?
"Flying on holiday is as bad as stabbing someone"
- Thread starter liampreston
- Start date
Of course we could switch over our energy supply to renewables, invest in Maglev trains and similar tech and build green tech houses. Once we have done that though, how do you address the problem with developing nations pumping out huge amounts of crap into the environment?
Gromit
International Man of Misery
My father used to work for a power company who would build power stations in foreign countries.
Power stations have a 20 year life cycle. They would build the power station. Run it for 10 years. Get their capital back and a profit in that 10 year period (whilst training up the locals to run it) and then donate the power station to that country for free to run for the next ten years. Everyone wins.
I see no reason why this couldn't work with renewable energy plants instead of conventional ones if the technology is advanced enough to make renewable energy viable and profitable over 10 years.
With government support to increase this kind of scheme the developing world would it would be sorted.
Fine, by all means ban internal flights, so long as equalisation is applied to train travel (e.g. all trips to London must take as long as the journey from Inverness).
Their logic is shite.
Nobody is ever going to get elected on the basis of limiting us on flights. And if some Government just implement it then the opposition will campaign on reversing it and get elected.
Its as simple as that. Cheap flights are here to stay. Anybody who trys and fucks with that is on an electoral hiding.
.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
If politicians only base their decisions on what will please the public and get them re-elected then the planet is screwed.
Oh shit they do and we are.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
What? Use English troll boy.
BTW, all those who are crying about cheap flights - you won't have any flights once the oil runs out, and then what will you do? Cry into your soup? Look back and realise that you could perhaps have had a few more decades of convenient long haul flights if you'd sacrificed cheap shirt haul - indeed, if you'd recognised the basic fact that flying cheap will only hasten the end of flying full stop?
Of course not - people like you and stoat boy will blame everyone else but yourselves, because that's what the short sighted do.
To be fair, I don't think you can really begrudge most people a holiday abroad every now and again while the rich are flying up and down the country for meetings that could easily be done via conference call.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
We'll have anti gravity flying saucers by then.
Or alcohol based alternatives to jet fuel with scram jets.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Hence my proposals about banning domestic and limiting EU wide...
If you ban internal flights (which mean that nowhere in the UK is more than 2/3 hours from London), then that puts most business outside that travel time radius at a huge disadvantage, having to factor in a day's travel either side plus overnight accommodation costs onto every day onsite.
To compensate for this massive disadvantage, all train travel to London should be rescheduled to take the same amount of time, irrespective of distance.
Thurso -London - 18 hours
Leeds-London - 18 hours
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Give me one example of how someone having to take a train will put a company at a genuine competitive disadvantage, assuming they provide like-for-like serivce with companies closer to London (for the sake of argument).
If a meeting is so urgent it can be done via videoconference. If it's so important that people have to be there you plan and build a schedule that accounts for the additional time. If you've got a business that relies on people being 'on-site' you set them up as teleworkers and give them a specific geographical location to cover. There is nothing that pulling domestic flights would affect that can't be got round by better business planning. Easier on people too - frequent flyers suffer from more health issues and have a higher chance of having early onset cardiothorassic problems too.
The world got by without cheap domestic flying for decades beforehand, it'd learn to cope again.
If a meeting is so urgent it can be done via videoconference. If it's so important that people have to be there you plan and build a schedule that accounts for the additional time. If you've got a business that relies on people being 'on-site' you set them up as teleworkers and give them a specific geographical location to cover. There is nothing that pulling domestic flights would affect that can't be got round by better business planning. Easier on people too - frequent flyers suffer from more health issues and have a higher chance of having early onset cardiothorassic problems too.
The world got by without cheap domestic flying for decades beforehand, it'd learn to cope again.
Any form of consultative/service business that earns revenue from services delivered face to face.
Nonsense, VC is utter garbage, otherwise greenies would use it for their gatherings rather than jetting off together to Bali.
That's great but who pays for the non-productive days spent travelling?
You can't force people to relocate. The UK is full of small specialised software houses that have grown up in a single location - are you suggesting that they should forcibly distribute their staff around the country? That's unworkable as we're not talking about generic skills anyway.
The reverse is true, I'm based in Edinburgh but fly throughout the UK wherever my company sells my specialised skills.
Sheer drivel, unless you're advocating a return to subsistence agriculture.
That was back in the good old days when we also had rickets and TB.....
It's all moot anyway as no party that wants power would be dumb enough to stand behind such a crazy nutfarm stance.
But the oil aint going to run out any time soon. There is shit loads of the stuff. The only limiting factor, as things stand, is the refining capacity.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Everything you've posted there simply says 'It's too much trouble to change anything, don't worry, keep it all going, steady as she goes.'
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
See the peak oil thread, and besides, we're talking about timescales that are possibly beyond our lifetimes - all you're saying is 'Fuck it, burn it all now'.
Not really. I want to see alternatives to oil as a primary energy source for all sorts of reasons. But lets cut this bullshit about the oil running out. Its not.
And people are not only bored of all the global warming bullshit but just dont trust the people pushing the message which seems to be just an extension of middle class liberal 'guilt' about almost everything.
If you want to sell a 'Green' world then fine. Just being able to let Saudi Arabia fuck off back to the non-entity it was before all that oil was found is good enough reason for me to happily pay extra tax that is ring-fenced for research into alternatives but banging on about what cunts people are because they like to fly to places is going to do NOTHING in promoting a green agenda.
I find it a bit bizarre that the main argument against advocating limits to flights seems to have been that it makes you unelectable.
Do people not want politicians who say what actually needs to happen, rather than what people want to hear? What's the *^^$ing point of BEING a politician if you don't say what you believe, but rather say whatever you need to say to get elected?
Everyone complains about spin and dishonesty in politics, and then someone is honest and gets criticised for allegedly making herself 'unelectable'.
Matt
P.S. Also interesting that Caroline has received more column inches for this than for the many hundreds of positive, constructive and useful things she has been doing/saying over the last couple of years, both to support community initiatives/campaigns across the South-East and to help push EU legislation in a progressive direction.
Do people not want politicians who say what actually needs to happen, rather than what people want to hear? What's the *^^$ing point of BEING a politician if you don't say what you believe, but rather say whatever you need to say to get elected?
Everyone complains about spin and dishonesty in politics, and then someone is honest and gets criticised for allegedly making herself 'unelectable'.
Matt
P.S. Also interesting that Caroline has received more column inches for this than for the many hundreds of positive, constructive and useful things she has been doing/saying over the last couple of years, both to support community initiatives/campaigns across the South-East and to help push EU legislation in a progressive direction.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Well the short answer is 'no one knows' because the countries that hold most of the reserves aren't opening their books to anyone to look and see what their reserve estimates are - we could be way before peak oil, about to reach it, have just past it or past it several years ago.
As for the rest of your post...well, sticking your head in the sand and banging on about 'alternative energy sources' (altho what you think will keep planes flying would be intersting). Also, I haven't made a single reference to anyone being 'cunts' for flying. I like flying - my gf is Australian, my best mate is a kiwi who's moved back home. The thing is, I'd like to still have relatively affordable flying in 20 or 30 years time, and without cutting something down, that just ain't gonna happen.
_angel_
.
Limiting business flights rather than telling people who go for a weekend away somewhere that they're somehow wrong would help a lot more.
And why just target short haul European flights?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I assume you mean by that 'flights for business' rather than a specific type of business person only plane angel?
How would you draw the distinction? Would you have a kind of 'business miles' system? Would people be allowed to trade their unused miles in a similar way to carbon credits?
How would you draw the distinction? Would you have a kind of 'business miles' system? Would people be allowed to trade their unused miles in a similar way to carbon credits?
Why is it not going to happen ? If nobody knows about the state of oil reserves then how are you so sure that in 30 years time Ryan Air will not be still offering cheap flights ?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Even after all the developments in drilling and extraction tech, and the opening up of the Russian fields, even the most optimistic estimates on when we'll hit peak are around 2020, and it's all downhill from there.
There's another thing you touched on earlier too that's got some stat backing - peak gasoline. The argument being that the oilcos build refineries on a 20-30 year life expectancy, and won't build enough in the next 10 years to meet demand by 2040/2050.
And I'm sure Ryanair won't be around as a business in 20 years time generally...
There's another thing you touched on earlier too that's got some stat backing - peak gasoline. The argument being that the oilcos build refineries on a 20-30 year life expectancy, and won't build enough in the next 10 years to meet demand by 2040/2050.
And I'm sure Ryanair won't be around as a business in 20 years time generally...
gosub
~#
The buzz at last years NBAA was jet fuel from algae though at present are grown in sealed artificially lit vats (which is a bit self defeating but its early day. Article covers most the snags in synthetic fuel.
IMO another example of green irrelevence .What Lucas meant so say was ' poor people should not be allowed to fly' as IMO this whole non story basically reveals a typical green attitude which led to her saying what she said. She could have used any analogy/metaphore other than one which relates to those at the bottom of society.IMO this is indictive of green politics in the uk, and with the odd exception represents the attitude of some on these boards. This is why the green party is about as socially diverse as the 1922 commitee or wtf its called
DownwardDog
Well-Known Member
This is why the green party is about as socially diverse as the 1922 commitee or wtf its called
Probably less diverse than the 1922 which has all backbenchers as members and therefore a few w/c class traitors.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
As your helpfully provided transcript shows she said the following
An absurd piece of hyperbole for which she deserves to be mocked. I don't really understand your taking up the role of an unpaid GP spin doctor. How on earth can you expect to convince anyone that she meant anything different or that it is all UKIP dirty tricks. Although it must be nice for them to get a break from being Britain's most absurd MEP's
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Yeah, there's probably, like, a million gazillion gallons of oil out there completely undiscovered. On Mars maybe.
It's not as if anyone has made predictions based on anything real, after all.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
IMO another example of green irrelevence .What Lucas meant so say was ' poor people should not be allowed to fly' as IMO this whole non story basically reveals a typical green attitude which led to her saying what she said. She could have used any analogy/metaphore other than one which relates to those at the bottom of society.IMO this is indictive of green politics in the uk, and with the odd exception represents the attitude of some on these boards. This is why the green party is about as socially diverse as the 1922 commitee or wtf its called
What Brasicritique means to say is fuck future generations as long as we get to live it up. After all, who gives a fuck about people who don't exist yet. He'll probably be dead by the time we get to deal with the repercussions from this shit. It's all a conspiracy to fuck the poor anyway. Those cunts in the third world who are moaning about climate change shafting them are clearly a capitalist illusion. Anyway they don't really exist apart from on telly. Why do, like, anything that requires effort when you could just go on a march to express heartfelt solidarity for them and then go home and book a holiday to Marbella? Duh. You people are such idiots.
Have you watched the video of the conversation?
They were in the middle of talking about placing limits on peoples' freedom. The knifing comment refers to something they are already discussing: Lucas was arguing that it is not "undemocratic" to stop people knifing other people, and it is not undemocratic to stop people binge flying. In this respect they are the same - ie freedom has limits when it harms other people.
She was not saying that flying is the same as stabbing someone. Anyone who had actually listened to the conversation and wasn't trying to score cheap points by misrepresenting things would see that. Quoting three words from a several minute long conversation completely devoid of context is nonsensical and dishonest.
Voters would only think badly of what she said if they rely on the distorted version reported in the Mail and Sun - so there is no "rightly" about it.
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