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Firing someone

I have to fire someone who is part of my team.

8den, listen up lover! I'm going to talk nicely to you, I might be one of the few here with the patience to do that.

Sadly, you are failing at your job. You sound quite young, and inexperienced, and this is your first management role, so the fact that you have been promoted beyond your current capabilities is not surprising, and not something you should be blamed for. Most people would take a well-paid job in their field if it was offered to them, regardless of their missing skills (like people management, team building, human resources, etc) - hoping to fill in these gaps along the way.

We 'require' many levels of management in this country, and that means young, inexperienced people being put in charge of other people's lives quite a lot of the time - not a system I agree with, but that's what we've got.

What you have to do is negotiate your own morals within that system, and stay within the boundaries you set yourself at all times, even when the system says otherwise. The 'guilt' you say you are feeling sounds to me like a reaction to potentially doing something you know is wrong - and have you really exhausted all other options before arriving at this most serious of possibilities? Do you even know what the possibilities are?

She's bitter

Have you asked her what she might be bitter about? Have you built a relationship in which she could even tell you what might be going wrong at work, or at home, in an open and non-judgmental way? She might feel unable to talk to you because she feels you are judging her - and she wouldn't be wrong, would she, because you are judging her!

When was the last time you sat your team down and asked: 'How am I performing, on your behalf?'

You've never done this??!

Why not? Seems like a sensible idea, doesn't it?

If you did do this, could you take the answers and act on them? Would those answers be honest, do you reckon, or are the relationships you work with merely playtime ones? Only you know the culture you work in - are you a follower, or a leader?

difficult to work with

Newsflash: Some people are difficult to work with. That's no reason to sack them, but a reason why you need to become a better manager of people who are difficult to work with. Some of the best contributors I've ever worked with on my team have been utter twats, but they delivered. When they didn't deliver, and I knew they could, I found out why. If they didn't deliver, and I didn't think they could, I asked myself why I was working for an organisation which mishired people (could they have mishired me??) and what I could do to remedy the situation short of sacking (retraining, jobshare, skills-share).

Sacking is for dangerous people, people who risk other's health, it's a last resort. You haven't even tried the first resort, really, have you?

uncommunicative and obnoxious

If you have shown even the tiniest inkling to her face the depth of disgust you've shown on here, then I'm not surprised she appears this way to you. Can you honestly say you have been the parent here, taking her moods on the chin, not reacting, seeing the bigger picture, finding the root cause for the benefit of everybody (including her?) - if not, you are not yet management material.

She's also got pathetic time keeping skills.

No reason to sack her - that's reason to talk about her time keeping, to her, and arrive at mutually agreed solutions. Does she rely on dodgy public transport, could you car-share? Is there a practical issue?

If the relationship between you has broken down, or is breaking down, then she probably doesn't even want to come to work and see your face, let alone arrive on time. If everything else was sweetness and light, then lateness would not be forgiveable - but it's not sweetness and light, is it? And you are responsible for that - you accept money every month in exchange for making things sweetness and light. That's your job. With extra power comes extra responsibility - so are you positive you are living up to that responsiblity, and not just taking the easy way out because you think that's culturally acceptable?

I want her gone

Interesting turn of phrase. Not 'she has exhausted every chance I've given her' or 'she has broken her contract time and time again despite every help we've given her' - but I WANT HER GONE.

Power is seductive, isn't it? I wonder what kind of managers you have above you, that this kind of language is seen as acceptable to you. What you 'want' is probably the least important aspect of this entire equation. You could 'want' an easy option (that destroys someone's life, career, confidence and faith in humanity) but that doesn't make it right. Perhaps you should stop willy-waving and solve this problem properly?;)

I take enough bullshit from my boss, to take it from my staff, well...

Ahh, my question answered. You have shit bosses above you, and you are dutifully fulfilling your modern management role of passing that bullshit down to those below you. This will eventually make you a horrible little person, if it hasn't already. Resist at all costs.

Do you want to turn into the kind of boss you have at the moment? Are they models to aspire to?

You could go through your career sacking everyone you don't get on with, neutralising every problem with your inflated sense of power, passing the buck - and ruining lives. No-one will stop you, and the people above you are likely to support you.

Or, you could do things differently, and choose the harder but far more rewarding path. Do you have it in you, I wonder?

Instead of seeing yourself as a controller of people, why not see yourself as a defender of people, as a motivator, and as an enabler?

Instead of passing on the bullshit you get from the bosses above you, why not shoulder that bullshit and refuse to pass it on? Manage upwards, as well as downwards, and save your staff from the heartache of wasted effort. If this member of staff has problem with her job or her managers, which she sounds like she might with her attitude and lateness, then why not become her ally, and tease out of her the real issues? Maybe she hates the big bosses as much as you do - maybe more?

You have the opportunity to turn this person's work life around - you could make her happy at work, make her proud of her job, make her feel useful, and respected, and integral to the team, and wanted, and safe.

Once you achieve this, you might even start liking the woman!:)

Or, you could sack her. And get a hollow round of applause from the kind of people you swore you would never become yourself.

Can you do this? Are you good enough to be different? This is your test. If you fail, you really will be one of 'them', and I'm afraid redemption is all the harder once that transition is made, because under the current system you will be rewarded for joining 'them'.

The fact that you feel guilt shows me there IS hope for you. You are not yet a management goon. But you soon will be if you don't think long and hard about what you are doing in life, and what kind of life you want that to be.

Even if you cannot solve this woman's issues, you could consentually 'manage' her into a new job, by helping her with her CV, giving her a great reference, letting her look for another job during work time (I've done all these things when every other possibility was gone) but that will involve making her your priority, rather than your company, or yourself. (You probably won't be able to tell your bosses you operate this way, but that's the price of being the agent within, and saving your immortal soul!)

Sacking is easy, and as the managers always say: 'It gets easier the more you do.'

Serial killers often say the same thing.

Don't become a serial killer. Wookey hates serial killers.:(
 
can I suggest putting all her stuff in a box and chucking it out on the street and the changing all the locks? Perhaps a restraining order too...

Either that or try a 'Wall Street' style walk of shame.

:rolleyes:
 
It's just sacking someone.... Feels weird.

I think I just needed to vent.

The first time you sack someone it always "feels weird". Its not a nice thing to do, and nope, it doesn't get easier. Personally, I'd have an Official Chat with her, HR, and someone of her choice first. This will avoid any nastiness later... Work out a plan for action and see if she follows it. If she doesn't then start on all the Official Warnings, etc.

(Oh, and I'd probably avoid using U75 for management advice unless you like lots of purile "managers are c&*nts" comments... :D )
 
If you're new to the post & new to being the manager, then I'd say to form your own opinions rather than accepting other people's default ones... You never know, the problems just might have been an issue with the previous manager's style/personality etc etc

If not, then you may have to bite the bullet but follow all the correct processes & exhaust any improvement opportunities you've got there (even if you have to create them) so that she gets a fair chance at changing things and a fair hearing

Part of being a manager's helping people to improve/change & that sometimes means you miht have to set up an improvement system yourself - part of a managers job maybe ?
 
It's just sacking someone.... Feels weird.
Really?! Taking away someone's livelihood feels weird?!? :eek:

And to think, all this time I'd assumed it must feel like taking a nice warm bath, with candles and soothing music and everything.....:rolleyes:
 
I have to fire someone who is part of my team.

I've inherited the department on my new job. Its my first time leading a team. The job is far more long term than I am used to. My senior when briefing me before I started this job that this person was "difficult" and "obstinant" (two adjectives I don't tolerant)

My assistant is around my age, when I left college after getting a BA and started out at the bottom, she took a different route, went and got a MA, and er, left college to become my trainee. She's bitter, difficult to work with, uncommunicative and obnoxious. She's also got pathetic time keeping skills.

I want her gone, but I've never fired anyone before. I know because of the industry I work in, I can pretty much tell her to walk out the door and never come back (no she's not some sweat shop employee, she's paid, by anyones standards above a london living wage. I just have this, well, guilt. I've never, well, been "the man". The fact is, she's part of a team of three, if she slacks, others including me, need to do the work, I take enough bullshit from my boss, to take it from my staff, well...

It's just sacking someone.... Feels weird.

I think I just needed to vent.
Even ignoring the mortality aspect, I'd have thought that posting the above was a bit risky...

I'm no expert on employment law, but presumably if the woman concerned were ever to see the above post, it'd be most useful in any unfair dismissal claim!
 
Sadly, you are failing at your job. You sound quite young, and inexperienced, and this is your first management role, so the fact that you have been promoted beyond your current capabilities is not surprising, and not something you should be blamed for. Most people would take a well-paid job in their field if it was offered to them, regardless of their missing skills (like people management, team building, human resources, etc) - hoping to fill in these gaps along the way.

The 'guilt' you say you are feeling sounds to me like a reaction to potentially doing something you know is wrong - and have you really exhausted all other options before arriving at this most serious of possibilities? Do you even know what the possibilities are?

Newsflash: Some people are difficult to work with. That's no reason to sack them, but a reason why you need to become a better manager of people who are difficult to work with. Sacking is for dangerous people, people who risk other's health, it's a last resort. You haven't even tried the first resort, really, have you?

You could go through your career sacking everyone you don't get on with, neutralising every problem with your inflated sense of power, passing the buck - and ruining lives. No-one will stop you, and the people above you are likely to support you.

:cool:

8ball - you're coming across as a very thoughtless and selfish person.
 
As opposed to all the people who, instead of helping 8eden, just seem to heaping abuse on him. How very U75...! :rolleyes:

You think that reinforcing some of the attitudes displayed in the OP & telling him/her how to achieve his/her goal of firing this woman would be helpful?
 
You think that reinforcing some of the attitudes displayed in the OP & telling him/her how to achieve his/her goal of firing this woman would be helpful?

I would suggest engaging more with 8eden to understand the situation better. Perhaps the OP has just started out in management and needs a few pointers... As was stated in the OP, they wanted to vent something, and rants are never the most carefully worded...

Its hard to see how this kind of abuse :

ButchersApron said:
Fuck you. Drop the job if your conscience is biting. Sooth yourself elsewhere goon. Oh you poor sod, maybe you need some counselling or something? Life is hard geek.

...is helpful in this forum...? If anything its not going to encourage people to ask for advice.
 
I would suggest engaging more with 8eden to understand the situation better. Perhaps the OP has just started out in management and needs a few pointers... As was stated in the OP, they wanted to vent something, and rants are never the most carefully worded...

Its hard to see how this kind of abuse :



...is helpful in this forum...? If anything its not going to encourage people to ask for advice.

It's the best advice up their own arse managers can get as it goes.
 
1. Butchersapron. Gosh, I'd say more but my "legal team" has advised me to keep stum.

What kinda of poncy arse hyprocrite claims to be all anarchist and damn the man, and has a fucking "legal team" like you did, butchers, when you claimed you were suing this website. Fuck off.

2. As to the constructive criticism. No I'm not that young, and yes I appreciate that firing someone is not that nice, but this woman is taking the piss.

Example. Before I arrived it was given that she would not work past 7pm. Two days in a row I was stuck in till 10pm, and on the second day, I left a note (on a massive whiteboard next to her desk) saying I would be in late. At 9:15am the following morning, I got a phonecall from her complaining that her mouse didn't work. Her mouse was unplugged and sitting on her desk. Five minutes later she phoned asking were something was, despite it being clearly labeled and filed in the correct place.

As to her time keeping she's 30 years old coming in from zone 2 to zone 1, I am not her fucking mother, she should be able to get in on time. She's not asked to stay late, but I expect as quid pro quo, that she's always there to open the shop as it where.

Wookey your advice was sensible and thoughtful, thank you. But it's not really applicable, she doesn't have much contact with management aside from myself, I bear the brunt of her attitude. You also seem to be transfering your own issues, and opinions about something else onto me, you don't know much about this situation, but are making numerous assumptions about me, the job, and her.
 
I would suggest engaging more with 8eden to understand the situation better. Perhaps the OP has just started out in management and needs a few pointers... As was stated in the OP, they wanted to vent something, and rants are never the most carefully worded...

Its hard to see how this kind of abuse :



...is helpful in this forum...? If anything its not going to encourage people to ask for advice.

But s/he wasn't asking for advice.
 
Its hard to see how this kind of abuse :



...is helpful in this forum...? If anything its not going to encourage people to ask for advice.

I don't think we want people asking for advice on how to put someone out of work, tbh. I'm growing heartily sick of seeing more and more of these sort of threads on here - It's not as if they're the ones short of official backing or support for their actions. Why don't they piss off and ask the CBI or CIPD or something?
 
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