Finsbury Park- Blackstock Road raids.

[detective-boy]

... - at least 3 women have said it is real.

It's not though, is it?

tarannau knows it's all made up, based on some text analysis ...

... or should that be "prejudice" ...

As if anyone able to count to three without using their fingers could seriously believe that an operation of this size would / could be mounted on a whim, without significant evidence and intelligence gathering ...

 

[Badger Kitten]

I manage a pro-active team of undercover police and immigration officers (OP Swale) with the sole aim to remove foreign nationals from the UK who cause harm to our communities because of their criminal activity. If we cannot remove them (some nationalities are extremely difficult to deport) we will do our best to put them in prison for their crimes whilst working on a deportation solution.

He has specifically said he was after foreign nationals engaged in criminal activity: that's his job, that's what he is looking for

OP Mista was 18 months in planning and 12 months was spent gathering evidence against 52 of the most harmful criminals.

It takes a long time to gather intelligence on 52 people and 52 people in a 100-yard area is a lot. A total of 97 arrests have been made which is alos a lot, given such a small area of one road. I don;t see how you could swoop and arrest all the people at once without large numbers of police. If they went in property by property, they would all have scarpered. They would never have got sign off for such a huge amount of resources if they weren't able to indicate evidence that they had a serious problem. They had been on it for ages, and they needed to be, because it was becoming a threatening frightening area with extremely high levels of criminal activity.

I have lived in the area for years, I walk there at least twice a day.
I have seen with my own eyes that it was getting worse and worse. A year of arrests and warnings didn't seem to be stopping it, it was escalating.

I am also pretty sure, though I can't prove it yet, and will be waiting for the trials, that money was being diverted to fund terrorism and extremist causes.

I am sure that it was frightening for people caught up in it, but I still think it was the right thing to do because, as I said, it was an endemic problem and it was getting dangerous

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5028754.stm

http://www.algeria.com/forums/open-board-forum-libre/19368-finsbury-park.html

28 March 2007 Police are concerned that rising tension within Finsbury Park’s Algerian community is leading to vicious turf war.

On Wednesday night a man was stabbed in the groin in Blackstock Road and was last night (Thursday) still recovering in hospital.

It follows an assault outside a café the previous week where another man had a bottle smashed over his head and was then battered with an iron bar.

Now a respected Algerian councillor is appealing for calm and hopes the community can put the attacks behind them and “move forward”.

Both victims are Algerian and the tensions are centering around cafes and restaurants around Blackstock Road and the junction with Rock Street.

27 April 2007 Traders protest as crime-hit road is closed off again after knifing:
27 April 2007 -- RIVAL gangs involved in drug dealing and selling stolen electrical goods could be to blame for the latest stabbing in Finsbury Park.
Traders and residents told the Tribune that Tuesday afternoon’s knife attack in Blackstock Road may be linked to a burgeoning drugs trade.

Shopkeepers in the street, on the Islington-Hackney border, say organised gangs sell laptop computers and MP3 players from car boots.

The attack, which happened in daylight, is the fourth stabbing in the past month.

A 23-year-old Lithuanian man was stabbed twice, once in the lung – right under a CCTV camera. Although he managed to run a few hundreds yards towards Highbury, he collapsed outside City and Islington College.

His attacker fled the scene and police have not yet recovered a weapon. The victim was taken to a north London hospital, where he was in a serious condition yesterday (Thursday), although his injuries are not life-threatening.

Part of Blackstock Road was closed on Tuesday night and much of Wednesday as detectives and forensics teams searched for clues.

Mustapha Yeldiz, 33, who works in a grocers opposite the college, described the scene after the man was stabbed. “There was a lot of noise and then a huge crowd of people – about 100 – were all around him,” he said. “Police came very quickly and sealed off the area.”

Past knife attacks were blamed on increasing tensions within Finsbury Park’s Algerian community, although the motive for the latest stabbing is unclear.
Tuesday’s attack happened despite extra CCTV in the area and an increased police presence.

Traders complain that attacks are costing them business, with Blackstock Road placed under a heavy police cordon every time someone is stabbed.

A shopkeeper on the Hackney side of the road, a 62-year-old father-of-two who asked not to be named, has written to Hackney Chief Superintendent Steve Dann to protest at the lost trade.

He said: “Every time something happens they’ve got to close the road. The police know who is operating in the area but are doing nothing about it.

“People know this is the place to come to buy knocked-off stuff from car boots. It’s very well organised.”

Residents say the problems have been getting worse in the past few months.

Lynne Savery, 47, a children’s charity worker from Highbury, said: “The people who work here are good people. It’s so sad that the criminals are ruining everything. You can get anything here. Crack, cocaine, heroin, it’s all sold here. Everything bad that happens in the street is down to drugs.

”

link

 

[detective-boy]

Short of a riot there's never any justification for swamping an area like that imo

Yes, there may well be. Several different justifications in fact. But it's a total waste of time explaining them to you because you already know and will take absolutely no notice of anything anyone else (especially an ex-pig) says. So I won't.

 

[Badger Kitten]

9 May, 2007 -- A café worker is rebuilding his life after being knifed in a street that has seen three stabbings in six weeks.

The 32-year-old Algerian, who does not want to be identified, spoke to the Gazette about his ordeal - and about the problems in Blackstock Road, Finsbury Park.

He had just finished a day's work at Sim Sim cafe when he was attacked with a 12-inch kitchen knife outside St Gabriel Ethiopian Delicatessen around 10.30pm on March 21. His heart stopped for 10 seconds as he was airlifted to the Royal London Hospital, Whitechapel, but he managed to survive.

A few weeks later, a 22-year-old Algerian man was knifed in his side by a man of North African appearance outside the Mediterranean Café around 7.30pm on April 6.

A 23-year-old Lithuanian man was then stabbed twice in the back after a scuffle with a man thought to be from Eastern Europe outside the Café El Madina around 5.45pm on April 24. The second wound punctured his lung.

Recalling the day he was stabbed, the Sim Sim worker said: "Two men were fighting in the shop at about 7pm to 7.30pm. I pushed them out and one of them said, 'You pushed me hard'. He later came back and apologised.

"After I'd shut the shop, I got on my motorbike. Suddenly I was stabbed twice in the leg - once in my knee and once in the side of my thigh. I fell off my bike.

"He was Algerian, about 30, and looked like he was on drugs.

"I needed three units of blood and an operation to repair a nerve. I was off work for a month and I can't sleep.

"The police need to take over this place. Then the area would be fine. The problem is the young men and especially the teenagers. They steal. They fight. They drink and are on drugs. About 80 per cent are Algerian."

The violence has left many people in Blackstock Road worried.

They deny the existence of a gang culture but believe there is a problem with young men getting involved in drugs or selling stolen goods.

Bilal, 33, who did not want to give his surname, was helping out at Algerian coffee-house Café el Madina.

He said: "People get drunk and they start fighting each other. But it's not a gangland thing. Sometimes it makes me worried. It gives Algerians a bad name and we don't like the reputation."

A Blackstock Road supermarket shopkeeper, 57, said: "The problems are becoming worse and worse. People are stealing things like mobile phones and trying to sell them here.

"It's not gangs. It's just people stealing, selling and having arguments. Every time it happens I lose trade. Customers say they have their purses stolen."

A 37-year-old Algerian man, who lives in Finsbury Park and is a regular to the street, added: "People don't have work permits. They can't get work so they go and steal. They get involved in drink and drugs. It's young men and teenagers.

"It's a problem for the Algerian community. It creates a bad reputation.

"We need to help young Algerian men get jobs - proper work, not slave labour - and then it would stop.

"We need the Muslim community to help. There are two mosques here but these people are doing drugs."

According to Finsbury Park mosque in St Thomas's Road, the area desperately needs attention.

Abdirahman Warsame, executive manager, said: "It needs regeneration.

"There are a lot of young Algerians who are unemployed and who don't have legal status. Either they have not been granted leave to remain or they are waiting to find out.

"Some of them are involved in selling stolen goods like mobile phones, watches and cameras. I don't know if they are involved in selling drugs and I don't know who is involved in the violence.

"Local government needs to focus on this area and provide opportunities for young people, especially Algerians.

"We can help in terms of advice and community building but the area needs money."

Islington police would not speculate on the cause of the recent spate of stabbings.

But Detective Superintendent David Miveld said: "Where there is increased violence, then we increase police patrols in the area.

This is all from an Algerian discussion board

August 24, 2007 -- Dozens of mobile phones are being stolen to order every week and ‘fenced’ through middlemen in Finsbury Park who mail them in bundles to north Africa.

A senior police officer said last night (Thursday) that Blackstock Road was one of London’s “hotspots” for fencing stolen mobiles to Algeria.

Chief Inspector Jane Johnson said the handsets are robbed across the capital and brought to Blackstock Road for sale through unscrupulous shopkeepers.

Now a six-month clampdown is underway in a bid to stamp out the sale of stolen goods. Eleven people have already been arrested.

Chief Insp Johnson said: “We know there’s a strong Algerian link and a market for stolen mobile phones in Algeria. They have been blocked from working in the UK but will still work in Algeria.

“Very often they are shipped out of the country and the word is out that if people come to Blackstock Road, it is where they can get mobile phones.”

She added that Islington police took action after parcels containing mobile phones bound for Algeria were intercepted by Royal Mail and airport customs officers.

A turf war between criminals selling on stolen goods has also led to three stabbings around Blackstock Road cafés in recent months.

As well as mobile phones, seizures have included SIM cards and satellite navigation systems.

link

 

[Badger Kitten]

19 businesses were targeted and you got DOZENS of arrests - they were after 50 odd people. Doesn't that, and the articles I've linked show you that there was a massive problem in a very small area?

 

[tarannau]

It's not though, is it?

tarannau knows it's all made up, based on some text analysis ...

... or should that be "prejudice" ...

As if anyone able to count to three without using their fingers could seriously believe that an operation of this size would / could be mounted on a whim, without significant evidence and intelligence gathering ...

Erm, nice strawman. At no point at time have I suggested that no action should be taken, or that there wasn't an issue on the road.

I do, however, stick to my view that such a heavy-handed raid will be counterproductive. I think even you would concede Dboy, that police on a massed raid are hardly the most sensitive or tactful community relations experts.

 

[Badger Kitten]

How many people do you think you would need to arrest 52 people simultaneously in a 100 yard stretch of road in 19 properties, with suspicions that some, or all of the 52 may be armed with knives?

Can you do the maths and let me know?

Please also factor in that a police officer was stabbed to death in 2005 during a raid on a single property an Algerian from the same area?

You also need to factor in enough officers to secure the area to prevent peopel escaping as you make the arrests, and to keep the public safe during the arrests of the 52.

 

[Badger Kitten]

See, I make that about 8-9 officers to arrest each person, with the remainder guarding the roads leading into Blackstock Rd and protecting the public. 52 people in 19 buildings with 8-9 officers looking for each person, given that the arrestee may be carrying a knife, and may have had military or combat experience in Algeria, ( not saying that they did, but you have to factor that in when dealing with organised crime gangs with links to the GIA) isn't that scary, given that some of the buildings are 3 stories high and have back yards as well.

Meanwhile

April 11, 2008 -- Finsbury Park’s *“Little Algiers” will be under surveillance for the next three months as police and businesses help rebuild the reputation of an area where a rogue street trading racket sparked a massive raid two weeks ago. A dispersal zone, introduced in Blackstock Road last week, will run until June 27, allowing police to break up groups who gather in the streets for criminal purposes.

Business owners are determined to rescue the reputation of the area and with it the trade they say has dropped since 600 police officers in riot gear descended on Blackstock Road. The raid angered the mainly Algerian population, who saw the operation as a “clampdown on Algerians”.

Borough Commander Bob Carr met community leaders last week in a bid to ease tensions. He said: “We are committed to improving Blackstock Road for the benefit of everyone. I would like to point out we were not targeting the Algerian community as a whole but certain individuals who are spoiling the area for everyone. “It is only by working and consulting with the Algerian community that we can make Blackstock Road a nicer and safer place for everyone.”

Mohamed Nacer, of the Arab Advice Bureau, said business owners and residents have resolved to work with police to make the area “safe, exciting and diverse”. Businesses hope to gain funding from the London Development Agency for CCTV cameras at their shops. He added: “We asked the police for continuous help but we don’t want any more raids. We need to send out a message to the area. We’re going to have regular meetings with the police.”

Mr Nacer is organising a petition, which he hopes businesses, residents, police and local politicians will sign, to resolve to keep Blackstock Road crime-free. The petition concludes: “We believe this is a good place, full of character and diversity and a working example of the multi-cultural atmosphere that London is part of.” Mr Nacer is now having talks on organising a festival celebrating the character of Blackstock Road.

Since the raid, police have seized 350 items of stolen property including 120 laptops, 110 cameras, 32 iPods, 20 sat-nav systems and 47 forged documents as well as two kilos of heroin with a street value of more than £200,000. Last week, officers were led to a passport factory in south London, after stopping a car in Blackstock Road.

The street became the focus of the massive police operation after it emerged it was a major centre for stolen electrical goods. Mobile phone firm T-Mobile told officers 42 per cent of all stolen SIM cards in England were later reactivated for the first time in Blackstock Road.

Link

 

[detective-boy]

Erm, nice strawman. At no point at time have I suggested that no action should be taken, or that there wasn't an issue on the road.

That wasn't quite my point though, was it? My point was that you denied that the operation was based on extensive intelligence and evidence gathering:

If anything betrays the lack of any real police intelligence and betrays the lie that it was a properly targeted operation it's that contribution.

See that? You state that there was a "lack of any real police intelligence". You state that the police claim that it was a properly targeted operation was a "lie". That is arrant bollocks (and you have no basis for the statements (other than your prejudices) anyway, even if it was true). Hence my response.

I think even you would concede Dboy, that police on a massed raid are hardly the most sensitive or tactful community relations experts.

No they're not. But there is a difference between 600 officers going into a single situation (club, protest, rave) where there is disorder and immediate threat of attack (which I suspect is more like the experience you're recalling) and a situation like this where the officers were deploying in groups of 10 or so to lots of different premises simultaneously, with no particular immediate disorder. Although it looked like the former situation it was actually more like dozens of simultaneous premises search / arrest operations. And groups of 10 or so officers carry out thousands of such individual operations every day and are perfectly capable of doing so in sensitive and tactful ways.

 

[detective-boy]

How many people do you think you would need to arrest 52 people simultaneously in a 100 yard stretch of road in 19 properties, with suspicions that some, or all of the 52 may be armed with knives?

Precisely.

But there is a valid question to be asked as to why it had been allowed to get into that situation in the first place - it didn't happen overnight and competent policing should have intervened sooner. I suspect part of the problem was that Blackstock Road is a boundary between two police divisions - Islington and Hackney - which would mean that each only saw half the problems and patrols would be more sparse than for areas in the centre of their areas. Dealing with boundary issues is something the police do not do well - "Not my problem, mate. Try ... " (Recalls lengthy debate between two Major Incident Units about who was responsible for investigating an attempted murder in Kennington Park Rd - shots fired from Lambeth side (SW AMIT), hitting victim on Southwark side (SE AMIT) ...)

 

[Treacle Toes]

I note you haven't dealt with any of Sal64ion's posts on this thread. Much like the policeman, people seem quick to gloss over his contributions and community's voices.
.

I was thinking this ^^^^^^^^^^^ to.
It seems strange, seeing as Sal64lon seems to be posting from the heart of this community.

 

[sal64lon]

The Algerian Community Based In London

THE ALGERIAN COMMUNITY BASED IN LONDON

We addressing this communiqué to the public, official and media attention, to raise our concern and revolt, after an unacceptable discriminating attitude and the mistreatment reserved to the Algerian community which has occurred in a democratic and a free country, where linguistic diversity and pluralism, has been always in the front line of the British legislation.
We have at this stage decided to voice our concern, we were choked as so many others, after the raid which took place in Blackstock Road (within Finsbury Park area ), targeting particularly the Algerian community.
A raid which shouldn’t happened in the first place in a civilised society like Britain, in fact we are totally aware that some extreme and dangerous behaviour were going on within the area, of individuals from the Algerian community and others, we have had by the past many attempts, with the local authorities in order to clean up the road of gangs, criminals, thieves, drug dealers and all type of prohibited activities.
We did try on numerous occasions to get rid of criminals operating within the road, but unfortunately we didn’t get an expected response from the authorities.
In this respect the Algerian community based in London, would like to clarify the following:
First of all, we support any project aiming to establish safety and fight criminality.
We strongly reject the method used by the Metropolitain Police, during the raid in the area, because such a tough response will eventually lead to the adoption of hatred by the people, this may also lead to some unpredictable reactions, in this particular timing where everybody is trying to establish a cooperative process with all parties to achieve a full integration among the communities.
We also reject the mistreatment reserved to traders or shopkeepers along the road, as they were treated similarly to criminals, while they were fully complying with the commercial procedures, and no case of an unlawful l behaviour has been uncounted among the trader’s community in the road.
We strongly denounce the total silence and selfishness from the Islamic parties adjacent to the road.
We do by the give a full admiration and consideration to the positive positions of some British MP’S, notably Mr Geremy Corbin, Mr George Galloway and the Mayor of the city of London, Mr Ken Levingstone.
We also would like to point out that the Algerian community members always gave an extraordinary example in terms of respecting follow members of the community, obeying by the law and order, trying their best to integrate, so a small minority of criminals doesn’t in any way represent the community.
We do finally admit that the area has experienced a very dangerous and difficult situation, particularly this road and the adjacent zone, in this respect we would like to stress that we are fully prepared to cooperate with all parties in order to deal with this matter in total, to prevent the community from a substantially risky exposure.

THE ALGERIAN COMMUNITY BASED IN LONDON
25th April 2008


P.S: a lot of people think all that do with sarkozy’s Visit to the area (It happen while the French president was at arsenal stadium

 

[WouldBe]

some?!? there are loads of people who can do it! The reason why mobile phone theft is still huge is because it is so easy to get the IMEI changed!

On Ericsson phones any attempt to re-write any of the 'IMEI' data resulted in the data being erased. This included the calibration data rendering the phone useless.

There was some software to erase the 'IMEI' data but this involved erasing the operating system, down loading the special software then having to re-load the operating system.

 

[sal64lon]

I haven't responded to him because I think I know who he is in real life and didn't think it was appropriate. I have been talking to several of the shopowners in Blackstock rd - of various nationalities.

Sorry how do you know me in real life!, and you think it wasn’t appropriate!!?
You have your own opinion and I have mine the same as every body else.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I haven't responded to him because I think I know who he is in real life and didn't think it was appropriate. I have been talking to several of the shopowners in Blackstock rd - of various nationalities.

 

[Badger Kitten]

because I'd rather talk to him privately face to face if we are going to talk than publicly on a message board

eta: I agree with what he says in his last post, but I don't see how else the police could have simultaneously arrested so many people - as per my previous posts about doing the maths.

If I was in the shop at the time of the raid, and was questioned by the police, I would probably have been freaked out too, however, I would have understood why it was happening. I do not think that the police were doing it deliberately to stir up trouble, in fact everything I have found out suggests the opposite and conspiracy/victimisation theories don't help.

 

[tarannau]

Why? Is there some sort of special covert handshake you need to perform?

I don't understand the cloak and daggers, nor why you've glossed over and ignored his contribution. Do comments only merit mention if they're not from the Algerian community most affected?

 

[Badger Kitten]

Why? Is there some sort of special covert handshake you need to perform?

I don't understand the cloak and daggers, nor why you've glossed over and ignored his contribution. Do comments only merit mention if they're not from the Algerian community most affected?

No. Stop stirring, there is nothing to be paranoid about.


I would rather speak to him face to face.Since I know who he is and where his shop is, and he doesn't know my identity. Therefore it seems fairer to talk privately rather than publicly, so the balance is restored.

I have quoted a very great deal of information form an Algerian message board, posted by Algerians. I have spoken to and continue to shop in and continue to talk to Algerian businessmen and Algerian-run businesses in the area. So please quit making this into something this isn't.

I choose how I communicate in this situation, and I 'd like to continue to talk to my neighbours and local businesses in the way I find most appropriate, which is equally, face to face, not on a board when one of us knows who the other is and the other doesn't. That's my choice, and nobody else's business, frankly.

 

[tarannau]

What a load of betty swollocks. So you can pontificate down to sal and ignore his comments on a bulletin board, but you can be nicer in real life? Why not just be transparent in both mediums?

You can choose how you want to communicate of course, but we're also free to interpret your reasons as a unnecessary load of old cobblers.

 

[Badger Kitten]

And I can regard you as a shit-stirrer who's trying to make trouble. Trying, very hard, but *yawn* it's not working on me.



I haven't ignored his comments, nor any other Algerian person's comments, I've gone and not only read up what Algerians have been saying on an Algerian board over the last few years and posted it all up here for your edification, but as I live here, and work here I've talked to local people as well, and the police, and my neighbours. In real life. As well as ''pontificate'' on a board ( which is all you are doing)

I've also said I agree with sal64lon's comment - but don't let that stop you. I can see what you are trying to do, but I can't be arsed with indulging you in your little stirring campaign, so I've popped you on ignore for now.

 

[Badger Kitten]

To be honest, I can believe anyone's seriously going to defend such an indisciminate and divisive action. If this was done with widespread community consent and (snigger) proper police intelligence then there may have been a point, but I suspect this was another heavy handed effort of police swamping an area with all the politeness of rhinos with severe piles. The net result will be a more divided community, greater resentment....and I suspect the normal equilibrium will be established very soon.

I'd like to be proved wrong, but I've seen the police pull the same shit far too often in Brixton. Far too many good people get caught up in such actions and treated like shit ime, leading to very little ongoing support.

You decided it was ''indiscriminate'' and ''divisive'' - but it wasn't indiscriminate, nor particularly divisive. The Algerian community have said their piece and plenty of other people, who also have a right to live and work in the area have welcomed it - a fact you have chosen to completely ignore.

To be honest that doesn't deserve a response Giles.

If you can't see the problem with such an indiscriminate raid then there's little hope for you. You've already started waffling on about 'wrong uns' and I half expect the eggs and omelette line to be trotted out with depressing predictability. Hate to point it out, but there was plenty the police could have down before it reached this stage and they could launch a swampingly media friendly 'tough on crime' raid.

Proof has been provided that this was part of an 18 month operation, with a great deal of preceeding police activity - a fact you have chosen to ignore
( as well as using intemperate language - and we're off..

You have touching faith in police intelligence then BK, far more than I have. And the point remains that a simulatenous crackdown on so many premises and a whole stretch of a road can never really be described as 'targeted'

Given many shopkeepers reactions to the raids, complete with banners and reports of severe community unrest, I doubt many share your sunny optimism.

I've never heard of a raid like this that hasn't been divisive and counterproductive. As a willy-waving show of force to show the curtain-twitchers supposedly who's boss it's fine, but if it has any lasting effect other than resentment and ill will I'll be very surprised. Policemen don't do sensitivity and community relations well on massed raids ime.

There is no ''severe community unrest''. There's a few banners and people have expressed their grievances to politicians and the police and others have expressed their relief - and told of their problems in the area - which you have chosen to ignore.

Are you being deliberately dense? The police rarely underpromote their successes.

If anything - like the terrorist raids last year - charges tend to be quietly dropped after the big media grabbing event, not added to.

The shopkeeper's response on this thread is illuminating. Yes, the area needed something done, but what it didn't need was a heavy handed show of insdiscriminate force. Anyone who's been caught up in operations like this - and I've been in a few unfortunately - know that police intelligence generally equates to assessing you on the basis of your skin colour, with the average copper being far from a model of sensitivity and decent communication. It's a demeaning and community-destroying way to go about things.

They had a list of exactly who they were going for, a fact, once again, you have chosen to ignore.

Perhaps you should become a little informed before spouting your 'suspicions' and silly oversimplifications then Giles. Maybe I'm being unsympathetic, but I've little patience with pontificating arses who spout fatuous headline tosh about 'big fish', an area where normal rules don't apply and 'catching a lot of unpleasant people up to some pretty unpleasant things' when they clearly haven't a clue. So far all those 600 coppers have come up with is a smattering of stolen vehicles, less than 5k in fines and a few illegal street traders.

As for personal abuse, to reuse your phrase about people being wrongfully arrested, 'tough'. Deal with it. What do you think's worse - having you and your friends swamped by hundreds of police in an indiscriminate raid, being identified and targeted mainly by your racial appearance and treated like shit. Or having a nameless bod calling you 'dense' on a bulletin board for the pious moralising and stupid oversimplifications that you've made.

I'm still agast that anyone can think that such a heavy handed show of force by the police could ever be considered targeted or constructive. For those of us unfortunate enough to have been stopped by police in raids like this - and let's be honest I suspect that it may well divide on racial grounds - the idea that raids like this are 'fair enough' is just jaw-dropping.

Christ, you've even had a shopkeeper in the centre of the activity on this thread tell how, despite. wanting the police to take action before, he was distressed by the way the police went about things. Instead you choose to ignore him and go wittering on about 'several people' who apparently seem to back this defective initiative up. Selective myopia at its most obvious.

Now take your patronising, vacuous oversimplicities and shovel them where the sun don't shine.

Interesting use of tone there.

Piss off Giles you disingenuous numpty. Where has anyone said that this raid has 'solved the problem'? Or where have I ignored, dismissed or been selective of other viewpoints? - I even directly commented on one of Badger Kitten's posts earlier up.

Your patronsing homilies are bad enough, but the misrepresentation and downright lies are a step too far.

What about your own misrepresentation? It's so obvious that you are angry and are making a point because you have an agenda....but you're also wilfully ignoring everything else that doesn't chime with it. Like the voices of people who are in the area saying that they had been subject to frightening criminal harassment, abuse, and theft.

To be fair, the idea that anyone could believe that an operation involving 600 cops, targeting a specfic ethnic group, leading to a mere smattering of charges, would be a constructive way to go about things more than depresses me. Add to that you've got idiots like Giles pontificating trite nonsense about 'wronguns' and how it's essentially 'tough' if anyone innocent got caught up unexpectedly in a frighteningly heavy handed raid and it doesn't help.

Honestly, it's like the lessons of mass operations like this, stop and search and the urban riots (Brixton, Toxteth etc) have never been learnt.

It's not ''a specific ethnic group'', but 57 specific criminals.Who happen to be from Algeria.

But feel free to ignore that as you froth on....ignoring posts about the maths of simulataneously arresting dozens of organised criminals operating in gangs.

Sorry to hear it Sal64lon. It sounds that, after years of doing effectively fuck all to help out the decent folks in your community, the police have now overeacted and are now criminalising everyone. It's hardly the way to build trust and further co-operation in future. Targeted operation my arse.

I'd love to speak to the arsehole who authorised such a counterproductive, downright harmful initiative.

And lo, the police officer's response has been published. Hvae you talked to him? Would you listen if he answered? Or have you already made up your mind?

Roughly translates as:
<Moralistic, leading claptrap about 'good guys' and 'decent folk> It's about them and us. Even the ones that appear friendly may not be - you can't trust them foreigners on face value can you? But if you can understand those ethnics, be sure to snitch them in and give us a way in.

If anything betrays the lack of any real police intelligence and betrays the lie that it was a properly targeted operation it's that contribution. Very nice of him to 'acknowledge' that there are at least some legitimate businesses.

It doesn't take a skilled reader to unpick that policeman's, sorry DI's, attitudes.

No agenda at all then. No misrepresenation, oh no.

I don't think anyone's denying that something needed to be done.

However, that's a world away from believing that such a divisive and heavy-handed swamping operation was necessary or anything other than counter-productive in building good relationships between the Algerian sand wider community

I note you haven't dealt with any of Sal64ion's posts on this thread. Much like the policeman, people seem quick to gloss over his contributions and community's voices.

Please also bear in mind that sally_sally is a bit of an unpleasantly sanctimonious bibble-head who help cause more than a little bit of a row on the Brixton forums yesterday, dismissively implying that the victims of (and witnesses to) a horrific traffic accident were 'pissheads' .

And on...and on...


That's why you're on ignore.There's no point taking to you, when your agenda is so obvious and your anger so apparent. You seem to be doing more to further the cause of divisiveness than anyone else.

 

[tarannau]

Gawd, you ain't half a self regarding type. Love your accusations of stirring and the belief in some way that "I'm working on you.' WTF - that's advanced paranoia in a nutshell

I've been transparent and straightforward throughout with my thoughts. There's been no need for me to voice separate 'on board' and 'real life' personas, talking piously of your discussions with the Algerian community off board but with no detail. It's the new 'I've Algerian friends, but..' get out clause.

Frankly I see no reason why you can't engage Sal on the boards properly. It's one thing saying that you 'agree' with him, but you were entirely in support of the raids earlier on the thread, finally seemingly to give a little later on.

Nothing, absolutely nothing justifies the police's inaction leading up to this point. This action was ill advised, heavy handed and counterproductive to community relations. The fact that some, fortunate enough not to be the right 'type' or colour to be involved in the raid, were so keen to applaud such a clumsy operation did indeed depress me. It's as if the lessons of the past haven't learnt.

 

[tarannau]

Am I angry about the raids? yes? But more from the perspective of a person who's been caught up in similar clumsy raids and operations in the past. There is no excuse for cheerleading heavy handed operations like this, nor for people reacting with triumphant tone about them, particularly when fatuous comparisons about 'good guys/bad guys' are bandied about

I'll stick by my comments about Sally-sally and Giles btw. If you've seen Giles' contributions elsewhere you'll know why, and Sally's response on a recent Brixton thread, characterising the victim and witnesses of a horrific road accidents as 'pissheads' was the height of shameful insensivity.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Oh, what the hell. I've taken you off ignore to have a peek and what do I find?

1.Kick off with an insult.
2. Yes, you are stirring. Look at your angry tone, the insults you have used and your ignoring of anything that doesn't fit your ''suspicions'' ( later found to be untrue) that this was an indiscriminate raid made with no intelligence.
3.Accusation of mental illness, lovely.
4.Claims to have been ''transparent'' and ''straightforward''. Well, you've actually been rude and abusive, but I suppose that is one way of putting it. Insinuation that others haven;t been transparent - smear - why on earth do you think they haven't? They have, I have, so this is just smearing.
5.Why do you think I will post details of private real life discussions here, without their permission? Why is it your business what I discuss in my local shops and with my neighbours?
6.Accusation of not engaging ''Sal'' on the boards - but I have, and anyway, I am under no obligation to answer every single poster on a thread individually.
7. I do agree with the raids. Every time I walk down the street, every day, I am pleased - no, thrilled - that I don't have to run the gauntlet of anxiety about racist abuse and sexual harassment. I am pleased that the profits of crime are not going to fund terrorism and cause death and injury and crime in Algeria and elsewhere. I agree with Sal that something had to be done, that's what I agree with him about, and I am pleased that the Algerian community says so - they have been saying so for years, as I showed, with all the Algerian board posts I put up.
8.There was no preceding police inaction ( you keep ignoring this point, even when the officer in charge explains it in a post)
9. Finally a vague accusation of racism - no - I'm not anti-Algerian - I have chosen to make my home in this area because I love this area - I am however, anti-criminal racist theives operating in my area with arrogant impunity, whatever colour or creed they are - and I would feel exactly the same if it was a bunch of English criminal gangs.


So, back on ignore, as there really isn't any point debating this with you.

''I don't live in the area but I know for a fact, that all police, everywhere are horrid nasty racist bastards who swoop without bothering to gather proper intelligence and launch divisive raids that cause widespread community unrest because they just love to give non-white people an indiscriminate kicking and anyone who doesn't agree with me is ...<insert doom-mongering here>... so why don't you <insert swearing and insults here>

 

[sally_sally]

THE ALGERIAN COMMUNITY BASED IN LONDON

We addressing this communiqué to the public, official and media attention, to raise our concern and revolt, after an unacceptable discriminating attitude and the mistreatment reserved to the Algerian community which has occurred in a democratic and a free country, where linguistic diversity and pluralism, has been always in the front line of the British legislation.
We have at this stage decided to voice our concern, we were choked as so many others, after the raid which took place in Blackstock Road (within Finsbury Park area ), targeting particularly the Algerian community.
A raid which shouldn’t happened in the first place in a civilised society like Britain, in fact we are totally aware that some extreme and dangerous behaviour were going on within the area, of individuals from the Algerian community and others, we have had by the past many attempts, with the local authorities in order to clean up the road of gangs, criminals, thieves, drug dealers and all type of prohibited activities.
We did try on numerous occasions to get rid of criminals operating within the road, but unfortunately we didn’t get an expected response from the authorities.
In this respect the Algerian community based in London, would like to clarify the following:
First of all, we support any project aiming to establish safety and fight criminality.
We strongly reject the method used by the Metropolitain Police, during the raid in the area, because such a tough response will eventually lead to the adoption of hatred by the people, this may also lead to some unpredictable reactions, in this particular timing where everybody is trying to establish a cooperative process with all parties to achieve a full integration among the communities.
We also reject the mistreatment reserved to traders or shopkeepers along the road, as they were treated similarly to criminals, while they were fully complying with the commercial procedures, and no case of an unlawful l behaviour has been uncounted among the trader’s community in the road.
We strongly denounce the total silence and selfishness from the Islamic parties adjacent to the road.
We do by the give a full admiration and consideration to the positive positions of some British MP’S, notably Mr Geremy Corbin, Mr George Galloway and the Mayor of the city of London, Mr Ken Levingstone.
We also would like to point out that the Algerian community members always gave an extraordinary example in terms of respecting follow members of the community, obeying by the law and order, trying their best to integrate, so a small minority of criminals doesn’t in any way represent the community.
We do finally admit that the area has experienced a very dangerous and difficult situation, particularly this road and the adjacent zone, in this respect we would like to stress that we are fully prepared to cooperate with all parties in order to deal with this matter in total, to prevent the community from a substantially risky exposure.

THE ALGERIAN COMMUNITY BASED IN LONDON
25th April 2008


P.S: a lot of people think all that do with sarkozy’s Visit to the area (It happen while the French president was at arsenal stadium

Hi sal, whats it like now from a shop keepers point of view. Is it still quiet? When I walk down the road it seems quiet now but I am not there late at night.

Have the people who were causing trouble ventured back yet?

Sal

 

[jæd]

Nothing, absolutely nothing justifies the police's inaction leading up to this point. This action was ill advised, heavy handed and counterproductive to community relations. The fact that some, fortunate enough not to be the right 'type' or colour to be involved in the raid, were so keen to applaud such a clumsy operation did indeed depress me. It's as if the lessons of the past haven't learnt.

The community seems to have welcomed the action by the police... And any large police-action will be heavy-handed by its very nature. And yep, I've been caught up in one or two, but once the cops established I'm not who their looking for, and been free to leave...

To bring it down to a simplistic level, which you rather have : "Heavy handed" operations that disperse criminals, or to have criminal gangs getting on with various actives and intimidating women...?

 

[Badger Kitten]

If it was racist white English criminals hissing abuse and grabbing at the veils of local women shopping and going to the Mosque - and stealing their bags and phones and trading in stolen goods and false documents and committing organised benefit fraud on a huge scale, and sending the money to white supremacist groups, and 600 police arrested 57 of them on a list in a 100 yard area after 18 months planning, would that be a problem?

I wouldn't have thought so, and this is no different.

Criminal gangs. Don't give a shit what ethnicity or nationality or religion or whatever they are, they needed to be stopped.

 

[smokedout]

meanwhile 10 minutes walk down the road most of the UK's heroin supply is quietly being distributed

 

[Giles]

meanwhile 10 minutes walk down the road most of the UK's heroin supply is quietly being distributed

Another problem that needs solving, then.

Pointing this out does not alter the rightness or wrongness of the Blackstock Road operation, does it?

Giles..

 

[sally_sally]

meanwhile 10 minutes walk down the road most of the UK's heroin supply is quietly being distributed

Where do you mean, Green Lanes? Not Highbury Grove.

Sal