Finsbury Park- Blackstock Road raids.

[Melinda]

hmmm, i can think of a lot more roads in the surrounding areas that have far bigger problems

of course they aren't quite so gentrified

Are they main shopping streets where single women are harrassed as they walk-by?

Genuine question- I know Finsbury Park to shop in- but not to live.


sal64lon/ B.R- what did you think of the descriptions of the previous harassment on the street on this thread? Were the streets that bad in your experience?

 

[Giles]

Are you being deliberately dense? The police rarely underpromote their successes.

If anything - like the terrorist raids last year - charges tend to be quietly dropped after the big media grabbing event, not added to.

The shopkeeper's response on this thread is illuminating. Yes, the area needed something done, but what it didn't need was a heavy handed show of insdiscriminate force. Anyone who's been caught up in operations like this - and I've been in a few unfortunately - know that police intelligence generally equates to assessing you on the basis of your skin colour, with the average copper being far from a model of sensitivity and decent communication. It's a demeaning and community-destroying way to go about things.

Please don't keep on with the personal slurs. I don't accuse anyone who disagrees with me of being "dense" - I state my opinion. No need for insults.

I just pointed out that from what I have read, the cops were after more than JUST the immediate low-level arrests for simple stuff like drug / weapon possession, dodgy cars etc. More charges may follow.

Several people who live there seem to broadly welcome the police's action in breaking up the whole criminal "scene" that had developed there.

Giles..

 

[tarannau]

Perhaps you should become a little informed before spouting your 'suspicions' and silly oversimplifications then Giles. Maybe I'm being unsympathetic, but I've little patience with pontificating arses who spout fatuous headline tosh about 'big fish', an area where normal rules don't apply and 'catching a lot of unpleasant people up to some pretty unpleasant things' when they clearly haven't a clue. So far all those 600 coppers have come up with is a smattering of stolen vehicles, less than 5k in fines and a few illegal street traders.

As for personal abuse, to reuse your phrase about people being wrongfully arrested, 'tough'. Deal with it. What do you think's worse - having you and your friends swamped by hundreds of police in an indiscriminate raid, being identified and targeted mainly by your racial appearance and treated like shit. Or having a nameless bod calling you 'dense' on a bulletin board for the pious moralising and stupid oversimplifications that you've made.

I'm still agast that anyone can think that such a heavy handed show of force by the police could ever be considered targeted or constructive. For those of us unfortunate enough to have been stopped by police in raids like this - and let's be honest I suspect that it may well divide on racial grounds - the idea that raids like this are 'fair enough' is just jaw-dropping.

Christ, you've even had a shopkeeper in the centre of the activity on this thread tell how, despite. wanting the police to take action before, he was distressed by the way the police went about things. Instead you choose to ignore him and go wittering on about 'several people' who apparently seem to back this defective initiative up. Selective myopia at its most obvious.

Now take your patronising, vacuous oversimplicities and shovel them where the sun don't shine.

 

[lighterthief]

It's just depressing that an obviously bad situation had been left to develop until the only response the police could summon was an operation involving 600 people. I suppose this is the type of thing that pro-active, community policing would help with, although no doubt this would be classed as "intimidating" or "harassment" or whatever by many on this thread.

 

[tarannau]

It's just depressing that an obviously bad situation had been left to develop until the only response the police could summon was an operation involving 600 people. I suppose this is the type of thing that pro-active, community policing would help with, although no doubt this would be classed as "intimidating" or "harassment" or whatever by many on this thread.

Who has ever claimed that such community policework would be 'intimidating' or 'harrassment' then? You've even got a shopkeeper on this this thread who's asked for assistance from the police in the past but was clearly distressed by the way this operation went.

How the bloody hell do you justify the belief that the 'only response' the police could summon was such a massed operation. Pish. It was a high profile show of force, essentally a big 2-fingers to one side of the community hoping to curry favour with another. I don't for one second believe that there weren't alternatives that the police could have looked at.

Honestly, the strawmen and crass oversimplications on this thread depress me.

 

[Giles]

Perhaps you should become a little informed before spouting your 'suspicions' and silly oversimplifications then Giles. Maybe I'm being unsympathetic, but I've little patience with pontificating arses who spout fatuous headline tosh about 'big fish', an area where normal rules don't apply and 'catching a lot of unpleasant people up to some pretty unpleasant things' when they clearly haven't a clue. So far all those 600 coppers have come up with is a smattering of stolen vehicles, less than 5k in fines and a few illegal street traders.

As for personal abuse, to reuse your phrase about people being wrongfully arrested, 'tough'. Deal with it. What do you think's worse - having you and your friends swamped by hundreds of police in an indiscriminate raid, being identified and targeted mainly by your racial appearance and treated like shit. Or having a nameless bod calling you 'dense' on a bulletin board for the pious moralising and stupid oversimplifications that you've made.

I'm still agast that anyone can think that such a heavy handed show of force by the police could ever be considered targeted or constructive. For those of us unfortunate enough to have been stopped by police in raids like this - and let's be honest I suspect that it may well divide on racial grounds - the idea that raids like this are 'fair enough' is just jaw-dropping.

Christ, you've even had a shopkeeper in the centre of the activity on this thread tell how, despite. wanting the police to take action before, he was distressed by the way the police went about things. Instead you choose to ignore him and go wittering on about 'several people' who apparently seem to back this defective initiative up. Selective myopia at its most obvious.

Now take your patronising, vacuous oversimplicities and shovel them where the sun don't shine.

Again, no need for crude language and insults.

One shopkeeper has been quoted as being upset.

More than one person has said that what was done solved a big problem. If I have been selective, so have you.

Giles..

 

[tarannau]

Piss off Giles you disingenuous numpty. Where has anyone said that this raid has 'solved the problem'? Or where have I ignored, dismissed or been selective of other viewpoints? - I even directly commented on one of Badger Kitten's posts earlier up.

Your patronsing homilies are bad enough, but the misrepresentation and downright lies are a step too far.

 

[lighterthief]

You seem to get yourself wound up fairly easily, tarranu

 

[tarannau]

To be fair, the idea that anyone could believe that an operation involving 600 cops, targeting a specfic ethnic group, leading to a mere smattering of charges, would be a constructive way to go about things more than depresses me. Add to that you've got idiots like Giles pontificating trite nonsense about 'wronguns' and how it's essentially 'tough' if anyone innocent got caught up unexpectedly in a frighteningly heavy handed raid and it doesn't help.

Honestly, it's like the lessons of mass operations like this, stop and search and the urban riots (Brixton, Toxteth etc) have never been learnt.

 

[sal64lon]

@ Melinda
yes I fully agree with your point it's bad and we have been telling that to police long time ago especially to hackney neighbourhood watch (serg Bond team) + we used to have a long talk daily with them but I think hackney police seems Not have a time to do that or not bothered, only Islington police do a better job (to let every body know that blackcock road divided between two borough of hackney and Islington)
I used to end up in argument with people at blackcock road area telling them not nice to stand across road and harassment on the street however I think sometimes the police fault as well for not having a good way dealing with these people in correct way… and most of these people are youth on their teen ager or 20s and sometimes they try to show off on front of their friends…Also they are new to the country +++ Many things to say…the whole problem started from one cafe called the yellow café the owner used to have let everyone sell anything and anything inside his café to let more costumers in but after years it come harder for him to control it so he had to sell that café to someone else ,,,so the next owner rented to someone and that someone not care or bothered so that’s how situation start from bad to very worse.. (And sometimes the new owner worries about his life in case he told these people to get lost!!)
Especially not easy for a worker to work and do the police job in the same time!


We used to report some crime to police especially 999 and sometimes 999 says we are calling them many times etc…so that made us shocked etc…however we try to help and we tried to be part of the area but it seems whatever we do we put down!!
At one time a police officer attacked and we have to save him!!

+ One time we saw someone wanted on crime watch we told police about it and that took them over ¾ month to arrest these 2 people …we reported to hackney side but hackney ignore it or they don’t have a time for that!!? Till I saw one office from Islington side I have told him n he report that to his team!! As a shop owner sometimes we are under stress too from police or from these people! So much to say and too little have been done it seems sometimes police not helping us only make it worse for our business!

Thank you

 

[Giles]

According to press reports, the police also recovered:

300 stolen mobiles recovered, as well as 120 laptops, 110 cameras, 32 iPods and 20 satnavs. Oh, and 47 forged passports and driving licenses.

Giles..

 

[tarannau]

No shit sherlock. That info's in the first post of this thread.

It would have been possible to make those seizures without the 600 coppers and the swamping of an area you know.

 

[Giles]

No shit sherlock. That info's in the first post of this thread.

It would have been possible to make those seizures without the 600 coppers and the swamping of an area you know.

I assume that part of the reason for having so many police was to make it clear that "resistance is futile". To prevent any kind of riot breaking out.

Giles..

 

[tarannau]

Has that area got a history of rioting then? Can't trust those bleeding Algerians I guess. Blimey, they even managed to swoop on mobile phone rings in the heart of genteel Brixton without a fifteenth of that force.

There's risk prevention and there's an overwhelming show of force. Trying to portray it as anything other than the latter does you no favours.

 

[sal64lon]

well now I can see police harassing people around our door steps ( and checking on people ) and that kill our business for example if I felt tired and need to have some rest of my free time and seat outside my shop police will asked who are am I etc..? That not nice every time it really make you feel like they doing that to stress you or to kill the business and the whole area!! As an Algerian I’m really left in the middle and our life now with police depressing …We used to know some police officer which we knew but with new police officer walking in the road upside down that make the whole life sad and more upside down!!

 

[tarannau]

Sorry to hear it Sal64lon. It sounds that, after years of doing effectively fuck all to help out the decent folks in your community, the police have now overeacted and are now criminalising everyone. It's hardly the way to build trust and further co-operation in future. Targeted operation my arse.

I'd love to speak to the arsehole who authorised such a counterproductive, downright harmful initiative.

 

[sal64lon]

Sorry to hear it Sal64lon. It sounds that, after years of doing effectively fuck all to help out the decent folks in your community, the police have now overeacted and are now criminalising everyone. It's hardly the way to build trust and further co-operation in future. Targeted operation my arse.

I'd love to speak to the arsehole who authorised such a counterproductive, downright harmful initiative.

Thanks for your reply and that make a good points
however you know on Wednesday the Commander of Islington Police Bob Carr come to our shops to have check things and I had a long talk with him and I have explain to him that raid was heavy-handed!! + Some Algerian community and business owner think that because of the French president and his visit to the area as every body know of the long connection of the French government on Algeria business! Some people say to me! Also the way how the police on that day were confused what to do and how rude they reacted toward people like swearing and use a racists words etc…I think some people of Algerian community going to write and meet their Mps + meeting with the Algerian high commission here in London to discuses this matter !


http://www.thecnj.co.uk/islington/2008/040408/news040408_04.html

 

[sal64lon]

According to press reports, the police also recovered:

300 stolen mobiles recovered, as well as 120 laptops, 110 cameras, 32 iPods and 20 satnavs. Oh, and 47 forged passports and driving licenses.

Giles..

well press always tell lies in most cases to make things sound very bad!! To let everyone know that if that was very bad................
the police will close some shops etc...but nothing happened like that at blackstock road area!

 

[sal64lon]

today George Galloway MP visited The Algerian community & the business community at Blackstock road in Finsbury Park first of all you will hear someone talking In arabic and than follow by Mr George Galloway


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MNXSbMb63zg#GU5U2spHI_4

 

[sal64lon]

Respect the residents of Blackstock Road!
Respect activists and MP George Galloway visited a number of shopkeepers and also spoke with customers in Blackstock Road on Saturday, to gauge reaction to the massive police raid in the area two weeks before.

George commented after the visit:

"What I've found here is a large number of very unhappy law-abiding people. This police raid seems to have been a massive over-reaction. They effectively invaded the area military-style. In the course of the raid equipment in a number of shops was broken.

"I am very concerned that shopkeepers, particularly of Algerian origin, were targeted. I made the visit to assure them of my support as an MP and as, I hope, a future member of the London Assembly. The Finsbury Park area is vibrant and friendly and the Algerian community has added colour and life.

"There has been much adverse tabloid publicity over the last few years about Finsbury Park which completely belies the reality. Many of those who were raided by the police had hitherto had confidence in the police but that has now been lost and it will be difficult to bring it back. The police claim they had to deploy very large numbers in order to avoid violence but deploying hundreds of police in this way is an act of violence.

"No proper explanation, never mind an apology, has been made to the many shopkeepers who were affected. I intend to write to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to pass on the concerns that have been expressed to me and to raise more general questions about the nature of policing in the area."

 

[lighterthief]

Respect the residents of Blackstock Road!
Respect activists and MP George Galloway visited a number of shopkeepers and also spoke with customers in Blackstock Road on Saturday, to gauge reaction to the massive police raid in the area two weeks before.

George commented after the visit:

"What I've found here is a large number of very unhappy law-abiding people. This police raid seems to have been a massive over-reaction. They effectively invaded the area military-style. In the course of the raid equipment in a number of shops was broken.

"I am very concerned that shopkeepers, particularly of Algerian origin, were targeted. I made the visit to assure them of my support as an MP and as, I hope, a future member of the London Assembly. The Finsbury Park area is vibrant and friendly and the Algerian community has added colour and life.

"There has been much adverse tabloid publicity over the last few years about Finsbury Park which completely belies the reality. Many of those who were raided by the police had hitherto had confidence in the police but that has now been lost and it will be difficult to bring it back. The police claim they had to deploy very large numbers in order to avoid violence but deploying hundreds of police in this way is an act of violence.

"No proper explanation, never mind an apology, has been made to the many shopkeepers who were affected. I intend to write to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to pass on the concerns that have been expressed to me and to raise more general questions about the nature of policing in the area."

Crikey. Anyone would think it is an election year. Oh wait.

 

[Badger Kitten]

got a comment on my blog abut blackstock rd left by the cops yesterday! so sharing it here

Thank you for your positive comments regarding Operation Mista and for those made by your contributors. I am pleased that we are winning the support of the local community following Phase 1 (Home address raids) and Phase 2 (Blackstock Road raids) on 27th March. We are now engaged in Phase 3, which is the long-term policing solution to eradicate organised crime and anti-social behaviour in your community.

I manage a pro-active team of undercover police and immigration officers (OP Swale) with the sole aim to remove foreign nationals from the UK who cause harm to our communities because of their criminal activity. If we cannot remove them (some nationalities are extremely difficult to deport) we will do our best to put them in prison for their crimes whilst working on a deportation solution.

OP Mista was 18 months in planning and 12 months was spent gathering evidence against 52 of the most harmful criminals. During the operation I have witnessed the harassment of females by these local youths, seen the blatant robbery of people going about their daily business, dealt with the aftermath of the stabbings and been amazed at the volume of stolen property that has passed through Blackstock Road. For each item of stolen property from a burglary, robbery or theft there was a story of loss, fear and violation of somebody’s life.

Nothing has pleased me more in my 21 years in the Metropolitan Police than to see a grown man cry for joy when he re-united with his stolen laptop containing all his family photos, emails, downloads, bank accounts and work all intact (none of it backed up!). The arrested suspect who decided to deprive this man of his memories is in custody awaiting trial.

OP Mista continues, only yesterday we executed search warrants at two more Cafes in Seven Sisters Road (3 arrests made, now a total of 97) as we spread the net to improve the quality of life for residents in the community. I can assure you that more raids will happen as and when we get the intelligence to justify them.

This is where we need your support. If you are not happy with what you see in your community just get in touch with us, you can always contact Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111 or contact my team directly. No doubt other criminals will try to fill the gap, so it is important we identify and remove them before they get a chance to embed themselves again.

I also acknowledge from the postings there are legitimate Cafes and businesses in the area who have welcomed the police action. We have done our best to target the premises who gave the criminal gangs refuge to operate within the area, but I am getting to know the good guys too as we sweep through the area. I do not want to upset the decent folk who just want to make an honest living, but in my experience some of the more overtly friendly café owners have turned out to be the worst offenders! I welcome your views on who you think we could work with in the future.

I assume you don’t get many posts direct from the police but I came across your blog by chance today whilst searching for a newspaper article. I think it is important to feedback what we are doing and what we want to achieve on your behalf.

Regards

Mike Duncan
Detective Inspector
OP Swale
Metropolitan Police

Email: mike.duncanAT met.police.uk

 

[detective-boy]

got a comment on my blog abut blackstock rd left by the cops yesterday! so sharing it here

Yeah, yeah ... bloody internet savvy cops ... posting on blogs today ... running for Mayor tomorrow ...

 

[sally_sally]

got a comment on my blog about blackstock rd left by the cops yesterday! so sharing it here

Well done Badger Kitten, I wonder if he reads Urban75 too?


Lots of friends have said they feel a lot lot safer going to the Blackstock Road Islington College campus, than they did before.

I hope they do what they say and and stop the problem coming back I really do.

Sal

 

[tarannau]

I also acknowledge from the postings there are legitimate Cafes and businesses in the area who have welcomed the police action. We have done our best to target the premises who gave the criminal gangs refuge to operate within the area, but I am getting to know the good guys too as we sweep through the area. I do not want to upset the decent folk who just want to make an honest living, but in my experience some of the more overtly friendly café owners have turned out to be the worst offenders! I welcome your views on who you think we could work with in the future.

Roughly translates as:
<Moralistic, leading claptrap about 'good guys' and 'decent folk> It's about them and us. Even the ones that appear friendly may not be - you can't trust them foreigners on face value can you? But if you can understand those ethnics, be sure to snitch them in and give us a way in.

If anything betrays the lack of any real police intelligence and betrays the lie that it was a properly targeted operation it's that contribution. Very nice of him to 'acknowledge' that there are at least some legitimate businesses.

It doesn't take a skilled reader to unpick that policeman's, sorry DI's, attitudes.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I have witnessed the harassment of females by these local youths, seen the blatant robbery of people going about their daily business, dealt with the aftermath of the stabbings and been amazed at the volume of stolen property that has passed through Blackstock Road. For each item of stolen property from a burglary, robbery or theft there was a story of loss, fear and violation of somebody’s life.

Nothing has pleased me more in my 21 years in the Metropolitan Police than to see a grown man cry for joy when he re-united with his stolen laptop containing all his family photos, emails, downloads, bank accounts and work all intact (none of it backed up!). The arrested suspect who decided to deprive this man of his memories is in custody awaiting trial.

The females who were harassed include Black, white and Asian women.

The robbery of people is people of all nationalities and ethnicities.

The stabbing victims included Algerian men.

The burglaries were from homeowners of all ethnic backgrounds.

But I suppose that doesn't matter?
What about the testimony of real people who have experienced abuse on the road on this thread - at least 3 women have said it is real.

 

[tarannau]

I don't think anyone's denying that something needed to be done.

However, that's a world away from believing that such a divisive and heavy-handed swamping operation was necessary or anything other than counter-productive in building good relationships between the Algerian sand wider community

I note you haven't dealt with any of Sal64ion's posts on this thread. Much like the policeman, people seem quick to gloss over his contributions and community's voices.

Please also bear in mind that sally_sally is a bit of an unpleasantly sanctimonious bibble-head who help cause more than a little bit of a row on the Brixton forums yesterday, dismissively implying that the victims of (and witnesses to) a horrific traffic accident were 'pissheads' .

 

[Badger Kitten]

I haven't responded to him because I think I know who he is in real life and didn't think it was appropriate. I have been talking to several of the shopowners in Blackstock rd - of various nationalities.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I regularly visit the area and my experience is similar to BK's.

I've been followed by some crazy guy who threatened me with sexual assault (apparently I was an English whore) in exactly the stretch of Blackstock road where the raids took place.

When in that part of Finsbury Park I always wear trainers and never heels, dresses or anything even remotely low cut or showing cleavage, just because I want to avoid the kind of problems that BK described.

I've also seen the young Algerian men fighting each other, loads of times, sometimes with very serious consequences.

Several times young Algerian men have approached me in an apparently friendly way and addressed me in French. While I speak holiday French I'm not so stupid as to understand what was going on and my haughty response that "I don't speak French", accompanied with a sneer to indicate that I am insulted by the assumption, usually seems to satisfy them and they move on to harass someone else.

I think it's long overdue that he cops needed to do something and the problem is a significant one that seems to have been getting worse and worse over time

Vsal64lon

an interesting first post and welcome to the boards
I'm just wondering what you think the police should have done given the extent of the problem?

Hi Badger Kitten, I have had exactly the same treatment. Lately I had stopped visiting a friend who lives down Ambler Road, just off Blackstock Road.

I was spat on, pinched and called a white slut. All I was wearing was jeans a tee-shirt. I hope they dont come back. I walked down the street last friday with my friend and the place seemed deserted, there was a mobile police station van and quite a few police about.

Sal

my experiance too .. though as i said i know a lot of women who did not like the vibe

I had my phone stolen from my hand three years ago not far from there. Well done, coppers. Why anyone would have sympathy for thieves being done is beyond me.

As a resident of the area I'm delighted that the police have taken the level of crime here so seriously at last. Every single female neighbour that I know has been mugged and had her handbag stolen in or around Blackstock Road in recent years. The atmosphere at certain times of day feels very menacing for single females, and many friends avoid walking along this street because they feel so threatened. Altogether the theft and gang violence -stabbings etc -have blighted an otherwise excellent place to live.

- Christine, London, UK

I have to say I'm not impressed with the way you have dismissed sally's experience because of a remark on a different thread, especially as several other people have backed up what she said.

The raid was a long time in the planning, intelligence-based, and I don't think the ACAB attitude is helping much.

 

[tarannau]

I have to say I'm not impressed with the way you have dismissed sally's experience because of a remark on a different thread, especially as several other people have backed up what she said.

The raid was a long time in the planning, intelligence-based, and I don't think the ACAB attitude is helping much.

What ACAB attitude? I'm commenting solely on the basis of this operation and the dodgy letter the DI wrote.

If I sound distrustful, it's because I am. Sadly my experience of police undertaking operations like this has been universally bad - police going in en masse are rarely tactful or good at communicating. Short of a riot there's never any justification for swamping an area like that imo - it may guarantee police peace of mind and provide a show of strength, but those caught up in such an operation - guilty or not - will almost certainly feel frightened and treated like criminals. You may not want to believe it, but trust me when policemen rush in en masse they rarely have the sensitivity, diversity and ability to communicate any better. It's a group of lads on a bum rush, with much obvious force and shouting

It's boneheadedly heavy-handed operations like this that inflame communities and lead to a future lack of trust and lack of cooperation. Why let it to get to this stage and then make a much trumpeted show of force? It stinks of deperation, lack of foresight and the need to be seen doing something, fuck whatever the long term results or the impact on the Algerian community.