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Finsbury Park- Blackstock Road raids.

as an algerian I worked and lived in Finsbury park for over 15 years, I and members of my has always support the police action to make the area safe and tackle criminality, but the way the operation mist was conducted it has killed the community business in the area? Much business has been affected, and there is questions need to be answered how we can revive the business and improve the area without any negative effect. Our community has the right to have a safe and respected place to gather, the police has to consult with community leader in such big operation!

I've found it much easier to shop there since this happened. I do all my shopping at the local shops and all the shopkeepers know me. I reckon business will pick up. The halal shop at the end has a big sign in the window saying ''one community- successful business- prosperous borough'' and I'm all for that.

I think once people see that the the hassling has gone, business will get better - I love living in the area and the shopping is great - all the food shops are brilliant and the cafe culture is nice too - there are some cafes that were men only but most of them are fine and I enjoy going to have coffee on my own or with mates.
 
It was never my experience of the area either, I always felt quite safe, but it has been nearly eight years since I lived round there so things probably changed.

I still pass the area every day and have been to the college/ library on odd occasions not long ago and no one has pestered me in any way but maybe that is an indication of advancing years :(
Or perhaps I look 'ardcore :D
 
Great news about the raids. There's a 100 yard stretch of Blackstock Rd where it meets Seven Sisters Rd, that had become deeply intimidating, gangsters, gangs, thieves and street harassers operating with impunity. It had been completely taken over by criminals, and it was a frightening place to walk, especially at night, especially for women. I live just off the street, and when I went to look the next day at which 'businesses' were closed or had been raided, I was not in the least surprised. They were the ones outside wheich I had been hissed at, intimidated abused and sometimes groped and jostled by arrogant racist youths.

The Turkish shopkeepers I am friendly with on Blackstock Rd were absolutely thrilled as well. I like living where I live, I love the shops selling baklava, breads,spit-roast chickens, fresh ground coffee, fantastic shish kebabs in flatbread and pide, piles of fruit and veg - I am friendly with lots of the shopkeepers because I buy all my food there, daily, and don't use supermarkets at all. To see the road being taken over by skanky gangsters was tragic. Well done the cops. Message sent and they knew exactly who they were going to arrest.

Now we might get our neighbourhood back.:)

Hi Badger Kitten, I have had exactly the same treatment. Lately I had stopped visiting a friend who lives down Ambler Road, just off Blackstock Road.

I was spat on, pinched and called a white slut. All I was wearing was jeans a tee-shirt. I hope they dont come back. I walked down the street last friday with my friend and the place seemed deserted, there was a mobile police station van and quite a few police about.

Sal
 
sorry bk but that wasnt my experience of living there at all

seen a bit of dodginess go down around there, finsburys park always been like that but on the whole found it pretty chilled

regularly had coffee outside some of the cafs on that stretch of road, used the internet cafs loadsa times and never once had any aggro

and i had my kid in hs buggy at the time, never got anything but utmost respect from the kids who hung out there

my experiance too .. though as i said i know a lot of women who did not like the vibe
 
the question remains .. since when did the police/state spend soo much money on dealing with men harassing women? ( i am not YET convinced it was such a high crime area) .. will be camden market next if it was for that!!:eek:
 
It's women who've had the hassle IME. Not men. Not men and women together. Women walking on their own. Unveiled ones.

Sorry to hear of your experiences Sal. Sadly, you are not the only woman who has said it. See the woman describing it on the BBC news clip.

I'm still pleased that it is so quiet now and hope that business picks up. The weather has been shit so I guess summer and the warmer weather will be the kicker - or not.
 
the question remains .. since when did the police/state spend soo much money on dealing with men harassing women? ( i am not YET convinced it was such a high crime area) .. will be camden market next if it was for that!!:eek:

It wasn't that, it was organised crime. Stolen goods, heroin, cocaine .

eta

And forged documents and the sale thereof.
 
Was Blackstock raid heavy-handed?

A week on, police face backlash as small businesses hit out over massive police crackdown

CAMPAIGNERS from “Little Algiers” attended an angry meeting at Finsbury Park Mosque on Monday in the wake of last week’s massive police raid on Blackstock Road.
Business owners and residents spoke out against the “humiliation” and “damage to property” they say they suffered when around 600 police officers took part in last week’s crackdown.
Yesterday (Thursday) shops and cafés along the road hung banners in protest at what they say was a “heavy-handed” police operation that targeted businesses instead of the real criminals.
This week Borough Commander Bob Carr held urgent meetings with community leaders as well as Jeremy Corbyn MP, to discuss warnings the raids would alienate the mostly Algerian population in the area.
Mr Corbyn said: “We were concerned about the scale of the operation. I feel the raid risked alienating people. Our view is that there should have been more gradual action across a longer time.”
Nineteen businesses were hit last Thursday when officers went in search of 52 people suspected to being involved in a black market for stolen goods, forged passports and drugs.
The raid has divided the community, with some vowing never to co-operate with police again and others promising revenge.
So far 81 people have been arrested, 36 of whom have been charged. Thirty of those charged were remanded in custody with police promising more arrests to follow.
Mohamed Nacer, director of the Arab Advice Bureau on Seven Sisters Road, has been asked to find a human rights solicitor to represent members of the Algerian community who say their civil rights were infringed.

Mr Nacer has been fielding calls from businesses and relatives of people arrested in the raid. He said: “The community feels degraded. They [police] want to give a strong message but it shouldn’t be in this way.”
At Monday’s meeting at the mosque, residents asked for a written apology from the police, for officers to work with the businesses, and said they planned to hang banners outside their shops.

Mohamed Malik, of the Arab Advice Bureau, said: “People feel there was a real overreaction. They have been asking police to take action against petty thieves for a long time but nothing happened. Then they came in their hundreds.

Instead of targeting criminals they targeted honest businesses. It’s not a crackdown on criminals, it’s a crackdown on Algerians. They are alienating the whole community. We’ve worked for years to get people to integrate. It has reminded many of the treatment they had at the hands of police states in other countries. It humiliated the community, wasted public money and brought down business.”

Imam Saad Ahmed, of Finsbury Park Mosque, said: “Everyone was happy the bad people have been taken away yet there have been some concerns from the community that there was a bit of excessive force.”
Wagshun Afework, who runs Eva Internet Cafe, claims officers broke his shop window.

“Now people are scared to come here,” he said. “Our customers were in shock. It’s a shame to see this in a civilised country. The police know each and every one of us. I’ve been here 10 years. They targeted us instead of the criminals on the street. They wanted to make a show for the media. It was like a military operation.”

His brother Yonas Hesfagyorgi said he needed hospital attention after police handcuffed him and forced him to the floor. Customer Lies Benmansour said: “They will pay for this. We’re innocent. There are cocaine dealers round the corner but the police came to the cafés. It was humiliating.”

Omar Ahouaoui, of Sim Sim café, where one display fridge is missing a pane of glass, after the raids, said: “They dragged me on the floor. I was screaming. I’ve been waking up with nightmares. People are talking of discrimination. This area does have its problems, but they should talk to us.”

His colleague, who asked not to be named, said: “It was like a war. There were three or four policemen on my back.

“This is the most respectable café on the whole street. It’s good they want to clean up, but they should target the street first. They are killing the businesses. They want to break the whole community.
“If they want us to disperse, they can buy my shop. I’m happy to leave. It’s like we’re terrorists.”

Source


the trouble was, the criminals were hanging around outside and inside the cafes. I like the shops and cafes. I buy all my food & everything else I need like cleaning stuff and gardening stuff from the shops. But there were some people who were using some of the the cafes to conduct criminal transactions, and they spoiled it for everyone - including the local businesses.

I hope it gets better. I'll carry on shopping and having my coffee there. I'm still intending to buy in the area because I really love living here. I'm putting my flat on the market and trying to get somewhere slightly bigger but I have no intention of moving away.
 
I had my phone stolen from my hand three years ago not far from there. Well done, coppers. Why anyone would have sympathy for thieves being done is beyond me.
 
April 4, 2008 -- Borough Commander Bob Carr, who met business owners and residents yesterday (Thursday), has responded to criticisms made of the Blackstock Road operation. He said: “We knew exactly who we were looking for and know what was going on in these premises – buying and selling stolen goods, drugs, forged passports – we have evidence. We were searching for 52 specific people and on the day we arrested 36 of them. We’ve heard some of the stories that are coming out but I believe the vast majority of those officers were totally professional. I’m fully confident we did it right. We’ve got evidence of criminality going on in each of those 19 premises. I’ve been surprised at how supportive the community has been generally. We see this as the beginnning of something good. There’s a real opportunity for the people left to make their business better. This isn’t aimed at the Algerian community.”

Reading the Algerian forum, people were moaning for years about how the criminality affected businesses.

(www) algeria.com/forums/open-board-forum-libre/19368-finsbury-park.html

I still think it is a good thing and business will pick up after a dip.
 
coppers website
Since July 2007 a multi-agency operation has been ongoing in Blackstock Road and will continue into the summer. The Safer Islington Partnership (SIP) is conducting the operation to reassure the public and to reduce crime and anti-social behaviour.

Partners include Islington Council, London Fire Brigade, Environmental Health and the Immigration Service. Each month sees the different agencies working together to reduce crime and anti-social behaviour in support of the longer-term project led by FinFuture.

Police intelligence shows there is high level of anti-social behaviour in Blackstock Road and that there is a link between some premises in the area and stolen property.

Since the start of the operation the partnership has continually consulted with the local community particularly the traders - many of whom are Algerian. Police have sought the help of translators and Independent Advisory Groups to ensure traders are kept up to date of activity taking place. Bi monthly meetings, supported by Fin Future, also take place to allow two-way consultation.

A monthly survey assesses whether the ongoing activity is having a positive affect and what further improvements can be made in the area. In the most recent survey, 89 percent of all respondents said the recent activity in Blackstock Road had made them feel safer.

Since the end of July up until December, police arrested 72 people in the area for offences relating to drugs, immigration and handling stolen goods. Also:

· Numerous people and vehicles have been stopped and searched

· Five vehicles have been seized

· One prolific offender has been deported

· £4,500 in court fines has been recovered

· Seven unlicensed taxis have been reported

· Five referrals have been made to the Council for illegal street trading.

The SIP continues to work with businesses and landlords to ensure they are not trading illegally. A police Crime Prevention Design Advisor is looking at how to improve lighting in the area and will make recommendations to Islington Council. Alert Boxes, which enable immediate communication between local businesses and police, are also being distributed.

Chief Inspector Jane Johnson, Community and Partnership, said:

"This operation is not just about making arrests but is also about providing a high profile police presence, engaging with and reassuring the local community that we are addressing the problems in the area."

"So far the local community has been extremely supportive. We need this to continue. It is only with their support that we can tackle these issues and make Blackstock Road a safer and more pleasant place for everyone."

"My vision for Blackstock Road is a vibrant, thriving and culturally rich area which people can visit and feel safe doing so."
 
To be honest, I can believe anyone's seriously going to defend such an indisciminate and divisive action. If this was done with widespread community consent and (snigger) proper police intelligence then there may have been a point, but I suspect this was another heavy handed effort of police swamping an area with all the politeness of rhinos with severe piles. The net result will be a more divided community, greater resentment....and I suspect the normal equilibrium will be established very soon.

I'd like to be proved wrong, but I've seen the police pull the same shit far too often in Brixton. Far too many good people get caught up in such actions and treated like shit ime, leading to very little ongoing support.
 
To be honest, I can believe anyone's seriously going to defend such an indisciminate and divisive action. If this was done with widespread community consent and (snigger) proper police intelligence then there may have been a point, but I suspect this was another heavy handed effort of police swamping an area with all the politeness of rhinos with severe piles. The net result will be a more divided community, greater resentment....and I suspect the normal equilibrium will be established very soon.

What is this "community consent"?

If a significant chunk of the "community" are generally wronguns who have to some extent turned a small area into a general meeting point for crooks and troublemakers, why expect the police to seek "consent"? Are the drug dealers, muggers, sellers and buyers of nicked stuff supposed to consent to being arrested first, then?

How could the police give any kind of warning of what they had planned without ruining the surprise necessary to catch large numbers of people with stolen shit, drugs, knives, guns, false documents etc?

I am not saying that some innocents were not caught up in this, but things had obviously been allowed to degenerate so that all sorts of bad stuff was centred on this area.

Giles..
 
To be honest that doesn't deserve a response Giles.

If you can't see the problem with such an indiscriminate raid then there's little hope for you. You've already started waffling on about 'wrong uns' and I half expect the eggs and omelette line to be trotted out with depressing predictability. Hate to point it out, but there was plenty the police could have down before it reached this stage and they could launch a swampingly media friendly 'tough on crime' raid.
 
It wasn't indiscriminate, they knew exactly where and who they were going to for as a result of several months surveillance. They went in, in huge numbers, to 19 premises, nicked a few dozen people who were all on a list, raided premises and came out with £££ of stolen goods and forged documents,and were out within an hour.

If you look at the Algeria forum thread which I posted twice, or the 2003 Telegraph story you will see a) it had been going on for ages and b) it was the local businesses and residents and community representatives who were asking for it to be cleaned up.
 
You have touching faith in police intelligence then BK, far more than I have. And the point remains that a simulatenous crackdown on so many premises and a whole stretch of a road can never really be described as 'targeted'

Given many shopkeepers reactions to the raids, complete with banners and reports of severe community unrest, I doubt many share your sunny optimism.

I've never heard of a raid like this that hasn't been divisive and counterproductive. As a willy-waving show of force to show the curtain-twitchers supposedly who's boss it's fine, but if it has any lasting effect other than resentment and ill will I'll be very surprised. Policemen don't do sensitivity and community relations well on massed raids ime.
 
To be honest that doesn't deserve a response Giles.

If you can't see the problem with such an indiscriminate raid then there's little hope for you. You've already started waffling on about 'wrong uns' and I half expect the eggs and omelette line to be trotted out with depressing predictability. Hate to point it out, but there was plenty the police could have down before it reached this stage and they could launch a swampingly media friendly 'tough on crime' raid.

I can see that it will upset some people. But by the sounds of things there WAS a lot of crime and criminals using this small area as a hang-out, meeting point and underground trading post for all sorts of stuff.

And I didn't "waffle on" about anything, I SAID it. Disagree with what I say, but no need for insulting language. I did not describe your comments as "waffling on" about anything. And please don't even "half expect" to put words in my mouth that I did not even say.....

It seems to me that the police DID plan this fairly well and succeeded in catching a lot of unpleasant people up to some pretty unpleasant things.

If the people concerned did not "consent" to be arrested, well, tough. I am sure that the rest of the people living there did not "consent" to their neighbourhood being taken over by criminals either.

Giles..
 
You have touching faith in police intelligence then BK, far more than I have. And the point remains that a simulatenous crackdown on so many premises and a whole stretch of a road can never really be described as 'targeted'

Given many shopkeepers reactions to the raids, complete with banners and reports of severe community unrest, I doubt many share your sunny optimism.

I've never heard of a raid like this that hasn't been divisive and counterproductive. As a willy-waving show of force to show the curtain-twitchers supposedly who's boss it's fine, but if it has any lasting effect other than resentment and ill will I'll be very surprised. Policemen don't do sensitivity and community relations well on massed raids ime.


I live there, on a side road to Blackstock Rd - the Little Algeria end - and without going into massive detail about my exact address on a public BB, I walk about there every single day at least twice. I talk to the shop keepers every day when I go and buy bread in one shop, meat in one of three halal butchers, fruit and veg in another shop and the paper & cigs in yet another shop. I have spoken to the shop keepers who all know me because I do my shopping there, all of it. I don;t go to supermarkets

They are upset at people thinking they were anything to do with the criminal gangs and anxious that it will affect business, hence the banners. Some of them are moaning about it, but most of them are fine because all the criminality was bad for business. They have been complaining about it for years and it was getting worse. There had been over 70 arrests between July and December 2007, and the big operation was because nicking them in dribs and drabs wasn't working - they needed to nick about 40 people all at once to have any chance of busting three quite sophisticated organised crime gangs, who were dealing in illegal document, stolen goods, heroin, cocaine and knifing each other in turf wars.

Most of the Algerians in the area have lived there for years and are fine, this was an influx of Algerian GIA sympathisers, chucked out of Algeria for being militants/gangsters, plus some Somalis, and it was getting well dodgy - it was like ''their turf'' - like the rules didn't apply.

Despite the 72 arrests it was still bad, antisocial behaviour rose as a sign of how people didn't care any more. The massive, shocking show of force DID work. It's like a different area.

I'm pretty sure business will get back to normal soon. The anger will die down. There was some mouthing off to the local paper - but the repprter was specifically looking for people to be critical. Others told me they were positive about it and it didn't get reported. Only the critical bits were - and even then, people were saying things like

“Everyone was happy the bad people have been taken away yet there have been some concerns from the community that there was a bit of excessive force.”

Meanwhile, several women have testified on this board as to what it was like
and here's someone else on the ES board


As a resident of the area I'm delighted that the police have taken the level of crime here so seriously at last. Every single female neighbour that I know has been mugged and had her handbag stolen in or around Blackstock Road in recent years. The atmosphere at certain times of day feels very menacing for single females, and many friends avoid walking along this street because they feel so threatened. Altogether the theft and gang violence -stabbings etc -have blighted an otherwise excellent place to live.

- Christine, London, UK

Hardly fabulous for business is it?

On the Algerian forum link, there are Algerian people bemoaning the fact that the cops have not been tough enough and asking them to crack down before the raid.

It'll blow over, it was far more ropey after 7/7 and we all managed to cope in the area.
 
I walked down Blackstock road today at about 1. I was going to the City College cmpus there. There were two men being searched by police near the top of the road where it meets Seven Sisters Road on the right if I am looking down the road. Apart from that the road seemed very quiet and subdued.

As Badger Kitten has stated the road was awful to walk down for single women. It was particularly bad just coming up to christmas.

Sal
 
It wasn't that, it was organised crime. Stolen goods, heroin, cocaine .

eta

And forged documents and the sale thereof.

but that is pretty widespread across london surely?? sorry i do not think that answers why here and now .. unless it is the first of many across london
 
As a business owner at Finsbury park area and especially @ Blackstock road we used to have a meeting with police directly and even report any problem to them too but it seems sometimes police not bothered even to protect us, as a shop owners, many time I personally caught many pick pockets and hold them till the police come but after a while police will release these people easily that make me worry and I feel not protected from police + It happened 2 times some one come with knife and we hold them till the police come but these people will be released next day and see them of the front of my shop!! Anyway I have many examples but at the moment Im in not willing to post it here cause I m not comfort to do so here maybe in future!

I think in my point of views to solve Finsbury park problems police have to do the following:


1) - Police have to work directly with shop owners and residents of blackstock road and police should honest and open with us and not like treat us all like criminals.

2) - police sometimes not have enough understanding of other people culture and that sometimes make it worse,

2) - In my opinion for these whom may make troubles in the area they should be suspended from the area for like 1 year or more!

4)- I think MT should have some Algerian police officers to work in the area to understand the way how these people think because I know some Algerian are very good people, friendly and obey the law in this country …

5)- as everyone know the bad history of Finsbury park, sometimes police officers have a bad image about people from that and that make it worse between police and community + the last street on Black stockroad

6) - after the street raid on Blackstock Road for me as busniness ownr idon ‘t feel safe from police because yesterday and today the 8th/04/08 police keep checking with everyone passing by the door of my shop and that make people go away…imagine I work for £40 per day if the business still like this I will move to an other area! I know the police are doing greate job for us all but sometimes thye make it worse for us!

Thank you all for this great forum and thank you for let me share my points with you…sorry if that make not make any sence to some of you!

B.R
 
smokedout- did you read the personal experiences of posters on this thread? Cos that ^^^ is really dismissive.

600 coppers was riddiculous, but to deny there was a serious issue on that road now is disingenuous at the very least.
 
I suspect that much more serious charges will result from this raid - but they may take a while to be brought.

The main point was that there was large-scale and organised drug dealing, fencing of stolen property and apparently quite a trade in fake passports and other documents.

They will hopefully have caught some of the bigger fish involved in this stuff, but they may not be charged immediately.

It also was about getting rid of this feeling that it was an area where crime flourished with impunity, and normal rules didn't apply.

Giles..
 
smokedout- did you read the personal experiences of posters on this thread? Cos that ^^^ is really dismissive.

600 coppers was riddiculous, but to deny there was a serious issue on that road now is disingenuous at the very least.

hmmm, i can think of a lot more roads in the surrounding areas that have far bigger problems

of course they aren't quite so gentrified
 
I suspect that much more serious charges will result from this raid - but they may take a while to be brought.

The main point was that there was large-scale and organised drug dealing, fencing of stolen property and apparently quite a trade in fake passports and other documents.

They will hopefully have caught some of the bigger fish involved in this stuff, but they may not be charged immediately.

It also was about getting rid of this feeling that it was an area where crime flourished with impunity, and normal rules didn't apply.

Giles..

Are you being deliberately dense? The police rarely underpromote their successes.

If anything - like the terrorist raids last year - charges tend to be quietly dropped after the big media grabbing event, not added to.

The shopkeeper's response on this thread is illuminating. Yes, the area needed something done, but what it didn't need was a heavy handed show of insdiscriminate force. Anyone who's been caught up in operations like this - and I've been in a few unfortunately - know that police intelligence generally equates to assessing you on the basis of your skin colour, with the average copper being far from a model of sensitivity and decent communication. It's a demeaning and community-destroying way to go about things.
 
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