Finkelstein dumps dePaul
- Thread starter moono
- Start date
Nino: Now you are telling us what Jabotinsky considered? You can read dead peoples' minds?!? You are getting more precious all the time. Tell me Nino, do you do parties as well? Tell your Oiuja Board to let you in on some basic truths. Jobotinsky wqas a dead to rights Aglophile (true failing if you really nedd to point to one). He loved pomp and circumstance, rituals and gaudy baubles but ewas not a fascist nor was he at all a Nazi or Nazi synchophant.
It IS true that some OTHER Zionists did try and baragain with Nazis, during the early days in Hungary , and again in Turkey to try and save what little of Eastern european Jewry, but were turned down by Nazis, because Allied sources turned down the requested material coincessions (trucks,etc).
Jabotinsky was fighting in the British employ at that time, and was not in Europe, nor was he in tuurkey. However one who WAS there was Mufti al Husseini, a confidant of Hitler who spent much time in Berlin trying to sell the regime on spreading its genocidal ways to "Palestine."
So, we have SOME Zionists who DID try and save lives by agreeing to parlez with Nazis, but who failed, and then we have "Palestinians" who not only colluded with Nazis but did so in a concerted effort to anihilate the Jewish
People.
You sure you really want to explore this dynamic Nino?
It IS true that some OTHER Zionists did try and baragain with Nazis, during the early days in Hungary , and again in Turkey to try and save what little of Eastern european Jewry, but were turned down by Nazis, because Allied sources turned down the requested material coincessions (trucks,etc).
Jabotinsky was fighting in the British employ at that time, and was not in Europe, nor was he in tuurkey. However one who WAS there was Mufti al Husseini, a confidant of Hitler who spent much time in Berlin trying to sell the regime on spreading its genocidal ways to "Palestine."
So, we have SOME Zionists who DID try and save lives by agreeing to parlez with Nazis, but who failed, and then we have "Palestinians" who not only colluded with Nazis but did so in a concerted effort to anihilate the Jewish
People.
You sure you really want to explore this dynamic Nino?
Nino: I do not pay attention to anything Dershowitz says or does EXCEPT with direct regard to Chomsky and Finkelstein and then only to point out that a scholar of a better caliber takes umbrage at THEIR comments and published works. You point to Dershowtiz ans STILL tell us about Chomsky!? Can you not see the folly of your ways?
If you admit Chomsky's opinion then pay equal mind to Dershowitz. If you disregard Dershowitz, then you are negating Chomsky,et al. None of the mentioned names has anything to do with these issues save their being Jewish.
I am a degreed Jew. Not only am I a degreed Jew but am an Israeli citizen and veteran of the IDF. One would gather, paying heed to your rationale, that this would give me a distinct advantage over all of those people. Of course since I do not think like you do this automatically consigns my thoughts to the rubbish hea. Very telling Nino.
Spion: Still quoting Morris? You and others have already noted that he states two opposing positions. You adopt one and ignore the other? This makes no sense. Me? I go with the majority and the one that makes the most sense to boot. This is ignoring the avalanche of physical evidence.
Morris can reguritate all the subjective accounts he wishes but the people in charge, the ones who really know what happened say different and this includes ALL sides.
People like Leila Khaled have no love for Israel or the Yishuv. Glubb Pasha fought Israel tooth and nail. The Syrian PM? The Iraqi Foreign Minister? I know that it must be unsettling to have to face facts that fly in direct opposition to deeply long held convictions but like they say, the truth will set you free.
The Yishuv made very real mistakes, some of them quite grieveous but they made only a handful. Arabs on all sides made many,many more. You completley ignore these while grossly overstating things you attribute to the Yishuv.
Fact is, Haifa District was not the fault of Israel, Yishuv, or Zionists. It was the fault of Arabs.
As far as Jews opening fire on Arabs as they fled there, utter nonsense.
Certainly there were firefights as HaGanah took the city. This was why most Arabs left, to avoid it. Were Arabs shot? Almost all who were were actually militants or enemy soldiers. As in any congested combat zone there WAS collateral damage but again, this fault lies with the Arabs since they invaded, they sheltred themselves within civilian neighbourhoods, etc.
"Piss poor choices." Yes, in that they allowed themselves to be manipulated by foreign Arab interests, used as pawns.
"Dier Yassin." We have already discussed this over and over. Sorry, but when armed men are fired upoon by people who have already supposedly surrendered, and then some of those "surrendered people" maim your comrades things have a habit of spiining out of control.
To my mind this never, ever excuses such atrocities but they must never be twisted. Between 70 and 100 people died, most were non-combatants (not all though), and this should always be in the forefront. However, you completely ignore all the contextual elements and ignore outright the many more atrocities committed, by Arabs. They also happened first.
Invisible: "{After 67} East Jerusalem came under military occupation {by Israel}." So when Jordan took it in 48 in direct violation of both International Law and the UN Ratification their presence was NOT military occupation? SAo typical of Arab nonsense. At least Israel then and now permitted all peaceful people to pray and tour the area. Tell us, how many Jews entred E. Jerusalem from 48 to 67? ZERO. Tell us then how Jordan erected piggeries using HaKotel (Western/Wailing Wall). Tell us how the Wall was used as a bathroom . People uriniated and literally shat upon the Jews' holiest site.
Military Occupation? Indeed it is so far the best thing to ever happen for peoples of all outlooks,ethnicities, and faiths.
"Ateek halps 'Palestinians' overcome oppression.": Yes, because we all know how Checkpoints are so brutal. Fuunny, I pass through 3 just to get to the other side of my village anbd never thought once to focus my ire on the marines and soldiers manning them. I blame instead terrorists and insurgents.
Arabs need to get their things in order. Stop bombing us and we have no reason to man chackpoints. I spent more than 5 months in 2007 manning such a Checkpoint (The Sheshm "Junction" post). I would have loved to have spent those months making money, loiving my wife and kids. I was forced by Arab violence to do otherwise. It should be Jews who are angry as hell at these Checpoints. Arabs and their lackies are so foolish.
3 Jewish infants lose their brains and instead of outrage at that act, we have fools crying over ID checks.
If you admit Chomsky's opinion then pay equal mind to Dershowitz. If you disregard Dershowitz, then you are negating Chomsky,et al. None of the mentioned names has anything to do with these issues save their being Jewish.
I am a degreed Jew. Not only am I a degreed Jew but am an Israeli citizen and veteran of the IDF. One would gather, paying heed to your rationale, that this would give me a distinct advantage over all of those people. Of course since I do not think like you do this automatically consigns my thoughts to the rubbish hea. Very telling Nino.
Spion: Still quoting Morris? You and others have already noted that he states two opposing positions. You adopt one and ignore the other? This makes no sense. Me? I go with the majority and the one that makes the most sense to boot. This is ignoring the avalanche of physical evidence.
Morris can reguritate all the subjective accounts he wishes but the people in charge, the ones who really know what happened say different and this includes ALL sides.
People like Leila Khaled have no love for Israel or the Yishuv. Glubb Pasha fought Israel tooth and nail. The Syrian PM? The Iraqi Foreign Minister? I know that it must be unsettling to have to face facts that fly in direct opposition to deeply long held convictions but like they say, the truth will set you free.
The Yishuv made very real mistakes, some of them quite grieveous but they made only a handful. Arabs on all sides made many,many more. You completley ignore these while grossly overstating things you attribute to the Yishuv.
Fact is, Haifa District was not the fault of Israel, Yishuv, or Zionists. It was the fault of Arabs.
As far as Jews opening fire on Arabs as they fled there, utter nonsense.
Certainly there were firefights as HaGanah took the city. This was why most Arabs left, to avoid it. Were Arabs shot? Almost all who were were actually militants or enemy soldiers. As in any congested combat zone there WAS collateral damage but again, this fault lies with the Arabs since they invaded, they sheltred themselves within civilian neighbourhoods, etc.
"Piss poor choices." Yes, in that they allowed themselves to be manipulated by foreign Arab interests, used as pawns.
"Dier Yassin." We have already discussed this over and over. Sorry, but when armed men are fired upoon by people who have already supposedly surrendered, and then some of those "surrendered people" maim your comrades things have a habit of spiining out of control.
To my mind this never, ever excuses such atrocities but they must never be twisted. Between 70 and 100 people died, most were non-combatants (not all though), and this should always be in the forefront. However, you completely ignore all the contextual elements and ignore outright the many more atrocities committed, by Arabs. They also happened first.
Invisible: "{After 67} East Jerusalem came under military occupation {by Israel}." So when Jordan took it in 48 in direct violation of both International Law and the UN Ratification their presence was NOT military occupation? SAo typical of Arab nonsense. At least Israel then and now permitted all peaceful people to pray and tour the area. Tell us, how many Jews entred E. Jerusalem from 48 to 67? ZERO. Tell us then how Jordan erected piggeries using HaKotel (Western/Wailing Wall). Tell us how the Wall was used as a bathroom . People uriniated and literally shat upon the Jews' holiest site.
Military Occupation? Indeed it is so far the best thing to ever happen for peoples of all outlooks,ethnicities, and faiths.
"Ateek halps 'Palestinians' overcome oppression.": Yes, because we all know how Checkpoints are so brutal. Fuunny, I pass through 3 just to get to the other side of my village anbd never thought once to focus my ire on the marines and soldiers manning them. I blame instead terrorists and insurgents.
Arabs need to get their things in order. Stop bombing us and we have no reason to man chackpoints. I spent more than 5 months in 2007 manning such a Checkpoint (The Sheshm "Junction" post). I would have loved to have spent those months making money, loiving my wife and kids. I was forced by Arab violence to do otherwise. It should be Jews who are angry as hell at these Checpoints. Arabs and their lackies are so foolish.
3 Jewish infants lose their brains and instead of outrage at that act, we have fools crying over ID checks.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
rachamim18 said:
Rubbish, you're only telling part of the story. You've edited out the parts that would embarrass you. Please provide proof for your assertions.
This is interesting
So was Hitler. Hitler wanted the British on the same side. He was reluctant to attack Britain until 1940.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
rachamim18 said:
Your post makes no sense; it's one long ramble about nothing in particular. Just invective mixed with bullshit.
Dershowitz is a joker.
Spion
I hear ya
You were there were you? The military records show the reality:rachamim18 said:
The Haganah:
"Kill any Arab you encounter; torch all inflammable objects and force doors open with explosives." Mordechai Maklef, operations officer of the Carmeli Brigade, which took the city, to his troops. (Haganah archives 69/72 22 Apr 1948)
The British:
“During the morning [the Jews] were continually shooting down on all Arabs who moved both in Wadi Nisnas and the Old City. This included completely indiscriminate and revolting machine gun fire, mortar fire and sniping on women and children sheltering in churches and attempting to get out . . . through the gates into the docks . . The 40 Royal Marine Commando who control the docks . . . sent the Arabs through in batches but there was considerable congestion outside the East Gate of hysterical Arab women and children and old people on whom the Jews opened up mercilessly with fire. Two [Royal Marine] officers were seriously wounded.” (Tactical HQ, 1st Coldstream Guards, ‘Battalion Sitrep’ 22 Paril 1948, 16.30hrs, PRO WO 261-297, cited in B Morris, the Birth of . . . p191)
rachamim18 said:
“The conquest of the village was carried out with great cruelty. Whole families – women, old people, children – were killed . . . Some of the prisoners moved to places of detention, including women and children, were murdered viciously by their captors.” (‘Yavne’ [Yitzhak Levy] to Haganah Intelligence Service, 12 Apr 1948, IDFA 5254\49\\372, cited in Morris, the Birth of . . . p237)
“Their commander says that the [initial] order was: to take prisoner the adult males and to send the women and children to Motza. In the afternoon [of 9 April], the order was changed and became to kill all the prisoners . . . the adult males were taken to town in trucks and paraded in the city streets, then taken to the site and killed with rifle and machine gun fire. Before they [ie, the other inhabitants] were put on the trucks, the IZL and LHI men . . . took from them all the jewellery and stole their money. The behaviour towards them was especially barbaric [and included] kicks, shoves with rifle butts, spitting and cursing (people from Givat Shaul took part in the torture.)” ((‘Yavne’ [Yitzhak Levy] to Haganah Intelligence Service, 13 Apr 1948, IDFA 5254\49\\372, cited in Morris, the Birth of . . . p238)
Nino: "Rachamim edited out parts of the situation involving Nazis meeting with Zionists to avoid embarrassment.": Sorry, you will have to do better than that. Tell us which parts were omitted and please do so without sourcing it on some Arab or Maoist site.
"Rachamim should prove his assertions.": Pray tell, how would one do that Nino? How do I prove soemthing was NOT said? You on the other hand can easily prove me wrong by showing us some mainstream and/or annotated sources who jibe with your account.
"Hitler was an Anglophile, this is why he waited until 40 to attack the UK.": Um, that is not true at all, any of it (save the year of attack). Hitler waited because Chamberlin capitulated (as did Stalin) with regard to Poland.
I also see yet another analogy of Jabotinsky as Nazi. So,so boring Nino. Try soemthing else for shock value.
"Dershowitz is a joker." Yeah, we already know how you feel about anyone deigning to challenge your loose grip on reality.
Spion: "So, Rachamim was there? How else could he know what happened in Hafia during the 48 War?": No, I was not there. Like you I gain my position from history. Unlike you though, my sources are not committed to blind ideology (in fact I do not even use Zionist source ever).
"Claims by Morrison.": Again? Why not show us the conflicting quotes as well? Furthermore, you completely ignore claims to the contrary, by participants on all sides.
Instead you rely mostly on the work of one man who cannot make up his mind (how fitting actually). Funny though that mainstream sources, as well as Arab sources, usually say something far different.
As for Deir Yassin, while it was a true atrocity committed by Zionists, it too has been revoltingly manipulated by Arabs and their lackies. how many Arab non-combatants died there? less than 54 (of a total of 70 dead). No women had fetuses ripped from wombs, and so on. You also pointedly ignore the Red Cross which visited the site a mere 6 hours after the last bullet was fired, as well as UN personell.
Too bad that you took a bonafide atrocity and manipulated it into near worthlessness. Just like Jenin, al kinds of claims and nothing to back them up.
"Rachamim should prove his assertions.": Pray tell, how would one do that Nino? How do I prove soemthing was NOT said? You on the other hand can easily prove me wrong by showing us some mainstream and/or annotated sources who jibe with your account.
"Hitler was an Anglophile, this is why he waited until 40 to attack the UK.": Um, that is not true at all, any of it (save the year of attack). Hitler waited because Chamberlin capitulated (as did Stalin) with regard to Poland.
I also see yet another analogy of Jabotinsky as Nazi. So,so boring Nino. Try soemthing else for shock value.
"Dershowitz is a joker." Yeah, we already know how you feel about anyone deigning to challenge your loose grip on reality.
Spion: "So, Rachamim was there? How else could he know what happened in Hafia during the 48 War?": No, I was not there. Like you I gain my position from history. Unlike you though, my sources are not committed to blind ideology (in fact I do not even use Zionist source ever).
"Claims by Morrison.": Again? Why not show us the conflicting quotes as well? Furthermore, you completely ignore claims to the contrary, by participants on all sides.
Instead you rely mostly on the work of one man who cannot make up his mind (how fitting actually). Funny though that mainstream sources, as well as Arab sources, usually say something far different.
As for Deir Yassin, while it was a true atrocity committed by Zionists, it too has been revoltingly manipulated by Arabs and their lackies. how many Arab non-combatants died there? less than 54 (of a total of 70 dead). No women had fetuses ripped from wombs, and so on. You also pointedly ignore the Red Cross which visited the site a mere 6 hours after the last bullet was fired, as well as UN personell.
Too bad that you took a bonafide atrocity and manipulated it into near worthlessness. Just like Jenin, al kinds of claims and nothing to back them up.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
rachamim18 said:
Another shitty essay. It's unnecessary.
Face it, overtures were made by the Zionists (including Jabotinsky) to the Nazis. Your wriggling only serves to make you look like the revisionist and bigot that you are.
Hitler admired the British and didn't wan to go to war with them. That is the truth.
Again, you demand that I give you proof but you're in no position to demand anything. Go whistle.
Dhimmi: The fact that someone has not been sued is not indicative of anything. Perhaps they see it as an effort that would ultimately benefit Finkelstein either way since the publicity would elevate him far higher than he already is. As it is, only Zionists, Arabs (some), and left wing nutters know his name. Let a huge libel beef unfold and it will be quite different.
Suing or not suing does not change one iota of truth. Finkelstein has already been unmasked, a British Court could only hammer more nails.
Nino: Show us your source for Jabotinky's "overture." A fringe site? Israel Shamir? Finkelstein? Chomsky? Shahak? Go whistle? Typical, so typical. I used to think you just hated Israelis, but I have since found that you are nasty with almost everyone so at least you are an equal opportunity offender. You are consistent, if nothing else. Too bad though that that will never do anything for you.
"Hitler admired the British." : Possibly, although I do not recall reading about it. So what? Admiration would not have stood in the way his ambitions though and to think otherwise is silly.
Suing or not suing does not change one iota of truth. Finkelstein has already been unmasked, a British Court could only hammer more nails.
Nino: Show us your source for Jabotinky's "overture." A fringe site? Israel Shamir? Finkelstein? Chomsky? Shahak? Go whistle? Typical, so typical. I used to think you just hated Israelis, but I have since found that you are nasty with almost everyone so at least you are an equal opportunity offender. You are consistent, if nothing else. Too bad though that that will never do anything for you.
"Hitler admired the British." : Possibly, although I do not recall reading about it. So what? Admiration would not have stood in the way his ambitions though and to think otherwise is silly.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
R18, show me your evidence that overtures weren't made to the Nazis.
All you can do is lie, spin, weave, dodge and dish out insults.
All you can do is lie, spin, weave, dodge and dish out insults.
Nino: how does one show something was NOT done? The key is to show it WAS done. Proof then is on you, not that I need it...but your integrity sure could.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
nino_savatte said:
You've noticed as well?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
moono said:
But without the legitimization of a university behind him.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Grandma Death said:
Of course, he would never engage in such things...would he?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
rachamim18 said:
What utter bullshit. Sorry pal, but the burden of proof is on you, but as we all know you're an evasive wee shite who demands proof from others but is never forthcoming with the stuff. Hypocrisy be thy name.
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