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Fight! Architecture, Prince Charles, neo-classicists and modernists.

Yeah, Bigears is at one end of the spectrum for sure - and it's the opposite end to the scary hair types.

I'd put myself as towards the neo-classical elements, solid stone pieces with the lush interiors - but not quite chocolate box and doffing caps, jumpers for goalposts. There are some modernist buildings that are bloody amazing, and rightfully so - they're good pieces of work. But there's more godawful shit which won't last five minutes propagated by half arsed designers, lazy profiteering developers and planning departments who deserve seeing eye dogs and white sticks.
 
"Good"... well, they were doing the same thing that we are doing now, except slightly less derivatively. There was a culture war going on there in all sorts of forms and architecture was just one of them. I dare say if I'd been a young bachelor at the time I'd be all for more modern stuff.

For us, now, it's part of our history and the cultural legacy of this country and referencing it is great (I do it quite a lot myself) but the whole Prince Charles attitude seems to me to be not reference but simple leaden copying based on "architectural correctness".
If architects try to suppress the past (if I hear just one more withering use of the word "pastiche" from someone who's made a career copying Le Cobusier ...) it'll be left to the likes of HRH.

The Victorian styles haven't suddenly become outdated: they were "dated" when the Victorians used them, that's the thing with historicism. :D What we do now is qualitatively different.

I'd love to see England with soaring Gothic aerodromes and neoclassical shopping malls. (And proper, inventive neoclassical, not some godawful copy.) Perhaps the glorious Art Nouveau and Art Deco could make a comeback. They're as far from stuffy as you'll get.
 
It's one of those stereotypes that's become accepted now. I'm reading Matthew Sweet's Inventing The Victorians at the moment, and he (fairly convincingly) identifies a few specific things in the earlier part of this century which built on each other to give the idea that Victorian society was ordered, prurient, moralistic and so on. But I tend to think that a lot of it is down to simple golden-aging - that people assume that the previous generation, or the one before that, must have been a much nicer time.

He can't take modernists and futurists here, even if they'd be period-appropriate, because of their association with, well, modernity and the future, so he has to look a bit before that to styles of the past which were actively looking backwards and expressed some sort of conservatism, or at least historical continuity.

Definitely a golden age thing re Victoriana. The hark back to order and empire etc. Of course ignoring the, excuse the words, seething underbelly, of Victorian Britain.
 
There are some modernist buildings that are bloody amazing, and rightfully so - they're good pieces of work. But there's more godawful shit which won't last five minutes propagated by half arsed designers, lazy profiteering developers and planning departments who deserve seeing eye dogs and white sticks.

This has always been the case. The good stuff lasts, the crap collapses or gets demolished. It's self-selecting. Just look at all the crappy council estates being demolished these days. But the high-quality buildings remain and are thought of fondly.
 
I do find the British to be wussy NIMBYs about a lot of architecture though - there's so much mediocre stuff out there because everyone's scared to do anything that might stand out. France, for example, does much better at interesting architecture.
 
I do find the British to be wussy NIMBYs about a lot of architecture though - there's so much mediocre stuff out there because everyone's scared to do anything that might stand out.
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Regent's Park Penguin Pool

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Crystal Palace, (as was :( )

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Arnos Grove station, Charles Holden

We can more than hold our own in terms of innovation. :cool:
 
And the penguin pool aside from being rather small was not fit for porpoise as it hurt the penguins tootsies, and anyw\ay it was designed by a Russian.
Well if you want innovation, you'll get a dud from time to time. :D

We've a long tradition of importing foreign tallent. All to the good.
 
One of the modernists, with the crazy hair has just declared neo-classical architecture a classist tool, which keeps people in their hierarchical place and that modern architecture is about breaking down the class walls and reducing the hierarchy.

What an absolute pile of cunt twattism.

I'd rather see a building built out of something solid, that doesn't look like shit if it gets rained on repeatedly - or gets litter stuck to it, or leak or has absolutely no soul in the name of the class divide.

:mad:

Balls, balls and balls again sir!

Firstly architecture has always been intricately tied in with class structure, the elite build huge imposing buildings... I mean ffs we've been doing it since the Ziggurats.

Modernism sought to destroy that by providing comfortable, light and affordable buildings with modern amenities and, to a great extent, it worked. Of course the class divisions remained, it was still a capitalist society after all, but the point was to bring the poor up to a good standard of living.

Compare the recorded reactions to people moving into the great modernist estates when they were built to how they are now. The world was recovering from WWII, people didn't have what we take for granted now, and modernism gave them that... You can't just build hundreds of thousands of lovely classical houses. It failed in Britain because we were too heavily crippled by war debt and because successive governments failed to upkeep the better examples and commissioned countless awful examples not even designed by architects (which fell apart from time to time).

Of course that's just one aspect of modernism, will get to the others.

The day modernist architects sell up their Georgian townhouses and move into the housing estates they drool over is the day I'll take this sort of thing seriously. Perhaps.

Actually a lot of them do tbh, Barbican, Brunswick etc rather than Park Hill mind you.

Nah, I just think that if you're going to build something out of steel and glass - that's cold and soulless and alone, don't come the raw prawn by saying it's to do with class. Yeah alright - buildings do have class connotations with them, a lot of the buildings of government - the real solid classics are gorgeous things, but you don't destroy those connotations by making everything a great statement of just how amazing you are with your bloody protractor and looking down on the old stuff as haughty capitalist scumbag stuff.

But it's not just about building stuff out of glass and steel... Obviously a lot of vast office blocks do, but that's corporate architecture for you. Lots of glass does, of course, have the advantage that you can work in a really nice space, architecture isn't just supposed to be looked at from outside (mind you buildings with too much glass obviously present many problems too).

Berlin Philharmonie

innenraum_philharmonie_440x318.jpg


Vienna Konzerthaus

vienna-konzerthaus-vienna.jpg


Two of the most praised acoustic spaces in the world, but give me the philharmonie any day (photos can't do it justice btw, very hard to photograph a space like that, technically I mean. Because it's roundish), it is one of the most majestic, inspiring spaces I've ever seen. Not that I don't love the Konzerthaus, but it's not the same.

Why? The style is timeless. The notion that historical styles are somehow outmoded is a recent and bizarre one. The Victorians were happy mixing high-tech with historic designs.

It's really not, not unless you have an army of craftsmen to hand. That's partly why modernism arose, because people who had studied Palladio et al realised that the imitations of the time just seemed like tawdry rip-offs. We come back to the class apsect here too, modernism thought to revitalise the traditional crafts and cultures of the regions they lived in, but use them in a modern sense.

Just in conclusion, look at the most successful large scale urban arts and culture projects in recent years; Tate Modern (5 million visitors a year), the British museum refurb, Gateshead complex in Newcastle etc... Going back to the South Bank. All these were built to open up art and culture to more people, and they do.
 
Well if you want innovation, you'll get a dud from time to time. :D

We've a long tradition of importing foreign tallent. All to the good.

And a long tradition of exporting our finest talent because they can't actually build anything interesting here.
 
We come back to the class apsect here too, modernism thought to revitalise the traditional crafts and cultures of the regions they lived in, but use them in a modern sense.
Sounds like you're referring to Arts and Crafts. The whopping great irony is that the handcrafted goods were too expensive for ordinary people to afford. :D

This quest for "authenticity" is a red-herring. Traditional styles have always employed new techniques. I don't see why St Pancras is tawdry in a way the South Bank Centre isn't. Is St Paul's a knock-off? Why can't classic styles be reinterpreted with modern materials? (All that wrought iron in the Palace of Westminster, for example.) Where do we draw the line?

Unlike some scary modernists, I don't want modernism suppressed. All I want is diversity, along with sensitivity to surroundings.

Oh, and I'll take the likes of Richard "Robin Hood Gardens" Rogers seriously when he moves into the dilapidated object of his affections, not the spruced-up version down the road.
 
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This shitbag has someone to hold his cock while pissing. What right does he have to pronounce on architecture?

When the cunt can piss on his own, then and only then he might have the right to an opinion.

Cunt!
 
Sounds like you're referring to Arts and Crafts. The whopping great irony is that the handcrafted goods were too expensive for ordinary people to afford. :D

No, I'm not... Arts and crafts is one of the of the precursors to modernism but as you say is impossible to do cheaply (I'm a cabinet maker, I've tried).

Modernism (with a capital M) was a movement geared towards a synthesis of environment, tradition and modernity... Corbusier's chaise longue is an immediately recognisable example:

ai_lecorbusier_lc4.jpg


An entirely modern piece of furniture, but with hide upholstery that evokes traditional nomadic cultures. It's often referred to as critical regionalism.

This quest for "authenticity" is a red-herring. Traditional styles have always employed new techniques. I don't see why St Pancras is tawdry in a way the South Bank Centre isn't. Is St Paul's a knock-off? Why can't classic styles be reinterpreted with modern materials? (All that wrought iron in the Palace of Westminster, for example.) Where do we draw the line?

Again these are huge buildings that are of their time. If you were to try and build them again now you simply couldn't, the amount of skilled labour needed just isn't there and would cost an absolute fortune if it was...

Oh, and I'll take the likes of Richard "Robin Hood Gardens" Rogers seriously when he moves into the dilapidated object of his affections, not the spruced-up version down the road.

You've answered your own point there... These buildings have been left to rot, security and local sports projects etc lost their funding and they were allowed to turn into sink estates. Of course people aren't going to want to live in them, it's not because of the building itself though (hence why the well funded modernist buildings are very often occupied by architects, artists etc).

Also, please remember that a huge part of St Pancras is glass and steel...
 
One of the modernists, with the crazy hair has just declared neo-classical architecture a classist tool, which keeps people in their hierarchical place and that modern architecture is about breaking down the class walls and reducing the hierarchy.

What an absolute pile of cunt twattism.

I'd rather see a building built out of something solid, that doesn't look like shit if it gets rained on repeatedly - or gets litter stuck to it, or leak or has absolutely no soul in the name of the class divide.

:mad:

What pisses me off is the polarisation of the debate by the media, so on one side you get what I call "art" architects, the people who design buildings as "statements" and only consider functionality as a secondary need, and the staid, who want everything to be of a piece and fit in with everything else.

WTF is wrong with trying to find a happy medium?
 
Do you think architecture exists in some kind of vacuum devoid of the influences of class society then? Judging by what you write above it seems you must do!

Seems more like he's saying that claims from architects that modern architecture does break down class barriers etc, don't have that much of an evidence base.
 
Prince Charles: 25 years on from the "carbuncle" speech

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25 years ago Prince Charles made the speech containing his famous "carbuncle" remark about the designs proposed for the National Gallery. This speech did not make him popular with the majority of british architects.

His comments fuelled a kind of "style war" between the classicists and the modernists. A war that is hard to see as a productive one because, in many people's minds, it polarised debate around issues of aesthetics (which is always going to be a subjective thing) and distracted attention from more important issues.

Of course, architects were also riled because they felt he was abusing his position, as part of an unelected monarchy, to create a platform for his views.

Following that speech one of the things he did to put his ideas into practice was to build the village of Poundbury on his Duchy land in Cornwall. This was built in "traditional" style and further reinforced the perception that his ideas about architecture are fundamentally conservative - regressive even. It's worth mentioning that the designs for Poundbury did incorporate some other ideas such as designing with the needs of pedestrians rather than cars as a priority.

So anyway ... the other day he gave a speech at the RIBA. The full transcript (quite long) is here:

http://www.e-architect.co.uk/london/riba_prince_of_wales_lecture.htm

Early in the speech he says:

Prince Charlie said:
Now there is something I’ve been itching to say about the last time I addressed your Institute, in 1984; and that is that I am sorry if I somehow left the faintest impression that I wished to kick-start some kind of “style war” between Classicists and Modernists; or that I somehow wanted to drag the world back to the eighteenth century. All I asked for was room to be given to traditional approaches to architecture and urbanism,

It's open to debate whether the rest of the speech, or some of his recent actions, fully backs up this claim. To me, he makes many valid points but seems to spend more time pointing out problems that most people are aware of, than offering much in the way of meaningful solutions. The Poundbury model, even if you consider it a success in itself, can't be applied universally because it depends on having a self-selected group of occupants. Likewise he says:

Indeed, compare these current rules with those established centuries ago right here, around Portland Place, by the Howard de Walden and Portland Estates. Those rules were intended to make good neighbours of us all – in regard to heights, rhythms and materials of building – and it is because of these firm and universal rules that this Institute can today enjoy being in such an enviable headquarters building.

which seems to ignore all the things like type and wealth of occupants, or the economics of modern building - which makes it largely meaningless as a model, for example, for constructing social housing in 2009.

The speech is also infused with a little too much waffle about the dangers of "empiricism" and so forth for my liking. The same kind of thinking that makes him such an advocate of alternative medicine.


The speech was boycotted by some, who wrote the following open letter:

Disgruntled architects said:
"In the mid-1980s, Prince Charles publicly trashed several works of modern architecture, both built and unbuilt. In doing so he used his influential royal position by intervening in the democratic process of planning applications securing, for instance, the secretary of state's rejection of the design for the National Gallery extension.

Twenty-five years have passed. At the end of March, the president of the Royal Institute of British Architects announced that Prince Charles is to deliver the RIBA Trust's annual lecture on the 12 May. Within a week, the press reported that Prince Charles had re-established his mid-80s technique of seeking to oust modern architecture in favour of his preferred style of architecture, dismissing the Rogers Stirk Harbour design for the former Chelsea Barracks in favour of a published neoclassical design (The view from Highgrove, G2, 23 April).

The prince's latest move displays the destructive signs of his earlier interventions, when he set out to scupper modern architecture. This intervention must now be resisted by the profession; not because of the question of architectural style, but because his actions again threaten an important element of our democratic process. To all architects who value these democratic procedures, we advocate a boycott of the Prince's lecture at the RIBA on the 12 May."

Prince of Wales Lecture Boycott Letter - Signatories:

Peter Ahrends
Will Alsop
Ted Cullinan
Paul Finch
Tony Fretton
Piers Gough
MJ Long
Ian Ritchie
Chris Wilkinson


Well, I don't know if anyone has the energy to read the whole speech, but I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of those that do.


Comment from Jonathan Glancey here, by the way:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/apr/23/prince-charles-richard-rogers-riba
 
If Poundbury is Prince Charles idea of good design, I don't think he's on the right track. People bang on about the range of styles being too much, but the main problem is that it so mind-numbingly twee and boring. You trudge round and the gravel echoes all around but you can go for hours without seeing another living soul. It's like a ghost town somehow. I read an article that described it as a place for people who had given up on the modern world, and that just about sums it up.

Oh, and Budgens is called Poundbury village stores, which always makes me laugh. And there's a hairdressers called an "Art Hair Gallery".

BTW, one of the links at the bottom of that Wikipedia page is to my set of picture of the place.

http://www.paulrussell.info/gallerypound/gallerypound.html

I may get a Blurb book done and see if I can present it to Chuck next time he's in town!
 
Tower Bridge pretty much sums up Victorian Britain's (inded, possibly Britain generally) whole approach to design - amazing engineering covered over with some godawful shell because actually building something utterly modern was seen as too radical or 'not fitting'...
 
I really like a lot of modern architecture, but he's got some bits right. Some modern design is shocking, knocked up cheap as chips just to bring maximum profits to the developers with little concern for the locality or its inhabitants, with some great buildings lost as a result.

The Queen in Brixton was a good example: a fine Victorian building demolished and replaced with something that's unlikely to last longer than 50 years.
 
Again these are huge buildings that are of their time.
What makes that time qualitatively distinct from our time? The historical styles were hundreds/thousands of years old back then. They're timeless, as good now as before. If we don't have such craftsmen any more, it's in part because building in this style has become a cottage industry.

Robin Hood Gardens may have some architectural merit in an ideal world (although it's hard to find). The reality is that it's a crumbling wreck (yes, I've been there) yet Baron Rogers wants it kept.

And St Pancras does indeed feature soaring glass and ironwork. It marries old and new, and makes a nonsense of any argument that a traditional style is incompatible with modernity.
 
I really like a lot of modern architecture, but he's got some bits right. Some modern design is shocking, knocked up cheap as chips just to bring maximum profits to the developers with little concern for the locality or its inhabitants, with some great buildings lost as a result.

The Queen in Brixton was a good example: a fine Victorian building demolished and replaced with something that's unlikely to last longer than 50 years.

Indeed (and I share your thoughts on the Queen) - but this is primarily a matter of economics, rather than a result of bad (or modern) design as such. The problem is that he focuses too much on aesthetics and style (or at least, that's the way his message is perceived) which tends to result in the association of modern = cheap, bad design, and traditional = well built and designed. Which is a false association.

If he is campaigning to make political and regulatory changes that encourage people to re-use old buildings where possible, and build good quality, sustainable, adaptable new stuff, then that's all great.
 
If Poundbury is Prince Charles idea of good design, I don't think he's on the right track. People bang on about the range of styles being too much, but the main problem is that it so mind-numbingly twee and boring. You trudge round and the gravel echoes all around but you can go for hours without seeing another living soul. It's like a ghost town somehow. I read an article that described it as a place for people who had given up on the modern world, and that just about sums it up.

Oh, and Budgens is called Poundbury village stores, which always makes me laugh. And there's a hairdressers called an "Art Hair Gallery".

BTW, one of the links at the bottom of that Wikipedia page is to my set of picture of the place.

http://www.paulrussell.info/gallerypound/gallerypound.html

I may get a Blurb book done and see if I can present it to Chuck next time he's in town!

I've never been there myself but would like to some time. Going to have a look at your pictures now...
 
I really like a lot of modern architecture, but he's got some bits right. Some modern design is shocking, knocked up cheap as chips just to bring maximum profits to the developers with little concern for the locality or its inhabitants, with some great buildings lost as a result.

The Queen in Brixton was a good example: a fine Victorian building demolished and replaced with something that's unlikely to last longer than 50 years.

Don't you think the post war house shortages and baby boom caused most of the problem?
 
If we don't have such craftsmen any more, it's in part because building in this style has become a cottage industry.

No, it's because labour costs have risen massively, as have safety standards. An army of thousands, laying bricks 8 stories up in the air is a logistic and financial nightmare today.
 
A correction, unless I am much mistaken, Poundbury is in Dorset, next to the town of Dorchester.

Yes, I can confirm that Poundbury is definitely on the outskirts of Dorchester in Dorset!

Edit: for some reason, people get very wound up about whether it is a separate village or part of Dorchester. I'm not really sure why it's important, but there you go. Of course it's great that it's designed with the pedestrian in mind, but then again if you were cynical you could say the whole development is just making a shedload of cash for Chuck.
 
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