Feminism - where to start? What's the haps today?

[Refused as fuck]

feminism seems to me like misdirected energy. I could never be bothered by bigotry directed at me. The art of being a woman in this world sometimes requires not bashing through the streets, slamming into every man that might slight you, but by weaving around them, and letting them feel the indifference of your focus on other things. Women did not gain the right to vote by bashing their men, they did it through protest to the higher powers that be, calling out for them to be rational and fair. A man won't be rational if he feels like he's being attacked.

Shit post is shit. Is feminism about "attacking" men?

 

[Rainingstairs]

Shit post is shit. Is feminism about "attacking" men?

well, what do you think it is?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Yeah, your right, I can't circle that square, but I think the point was that Levy and co. are being dismissive and are disorientating where precisely the line of attack should be. Like I said I will read more before wading in, but I was passing on info from someone who would otherwise have a great deal to say on this subject.

Tbh, I do agree that Levy could come across as a little attacking at times. Shame really - I pretty much agreed with most of her observations throughout the book, but I don't think she was very good at looking at why they occur in the context of the wider society, thus she could be perceived as a little blaming.

feminism seems to me like misdirected energy. I could never be bothered by bigotry directed at me. The art of being a woman in this world sometimes requires not bashing through the streets, slamming into every man that might slight you, but by weaving around them, and letting them feel the indifference of your focus on other things. Women did not gain the right to vote by bashing their men, they did it through protest to the higher powers that be, calling out for them to be rational and fair. A man won't be rational if he feels like he's being attacked.

Nah, feminism is about attacking patriarchy, not men per se. Sometimes a weave is the appropriate action, other times more full on attack. But a lot of the changes we've already enjoyed required a more direct, angry approach. And when have ruling groups started to give up their power due to an appeal to their fair and rational side?

And "the art of being a woman"? Is that like the Art of War? Can I get a copy anywhere?

 

[cesare]

feminism seems to me like misdirected energy. I could never be bothered by bigotry directed at me. The art of being a woman in this world sometimes requires not bashing through the streets, slamming into every man that might slight you, but by weaving around them, and letting them feel the indifference of your focus on other things. Women did not gain the right to vote by bashing their men, they did it through protest to the higher powers that be, calling out for them to be rational and fair. A man won't be rational* if he feels like he's being attacked.

'Their men' The ones that belonged to them?

A woman may not be rational* if she feels like she's being attacked either. I'd go as far as saying that many people don't react well to being attacked, but I don't see that as a feeling specific to gender, race, etc.



* What's that then, eh?

 

[Rainingstairs]

'Their men' The ones that belonged to them?

A woman may not be rational* if she feels like she's being attacked either. I'd go as far as saying that many people don't react well to being attacked, but I don't see that as a feeling specific to gender, race, etc.



* What's that then, eh?

a dog on a leash will not behave normally but rather aggressively because a dog on a leash is not how evolution intended it to be. so yes, anything and anyone. agreed.
i guess bottom line for me is I am a woman, I don't feel repressed in any way, however I am grateful for what women had done to ensure our rights etc. etc. in the past.

When I am in a position of power, sometimes men would come at me with a remark of some sort. I view them as not members of a patriarchy but as a beta max. remnants of the old boy's club that they can keep. A dying breed as more women move into positions of leadership.


Agent Sparrow...never heard that saying before? the art of being a woman? As in, navigating positions of power, it's not as straight forward for women as it is for men. Maybe I shouldn't be saying this in a feminist's thread but I don't mind being paid for. Having doors opened for me etc. That doesn't mean that I don't pay or open doors...I'm just not that concerned with the issue really.

 

[Lost Zoot]

http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2008/06/11/sex-sex-sex-sex/

The girl who writes this blog is amasing ignore her rubbish website name. She's got an article called "Be fuckable or die"

 

[golightly]

it's not as straight forward for women as it is for men.

It's not straightforward for many men, tbh, unless they are prepared to play the patriarchy game or, for that matter, have the qualities that enable them to. Are you suggesting that for women power is more complicated because they have to use 'feminine wiles'?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Agent Sparrow...never heard that saying before? the art of being a woman? As in, navigating positions of power, it's not as straight forward for women as it is for men. Maybe I shouldn't be saying this in a feminist's thread but I don't mind being paid for. Having doors opened for me etc. That doesn't mean that I don't pay or open doors...I'm just not that concerned with the issue really.

It was your turn of phrase! It struck me as a bit odd, is all.

And as for you liking to have stuff paid for - fine if you find men who like paying for you. But remember that due to feminism, you have the choice to be like that or to not be like that.

http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2008/06/11/sex-sex-sex-sex/

The girl who writes this blog is amasing ignore her rubbish website name. She's got an article called "Be fuckable or die"

Skim read that article, she's too over-generalised in places, but her basic arguments seem to be true for a fair few women IME. Incidentally, this reminds me of some of the Levy stuff but just from a different angle.

Women, as I’ve discussed before, have been trained by popular media to see themselves as if through the eyes of an onlooker, to derive their arousal and pleasure from their ability to excite their partners. In such a scenario, women don’t have the opportunity to find out what their “natural” sexuality might look like, because it’s been sublimated, it’s been erased and replaced by male fantasies turned inward.

So what does that mean in real life? Instead of learning what kinds of things appeal to them, women learn what kinds of things appeal to men. Instead of learning about how their own bodies work, women learn how to use their bodies to titillate. Many women, especially young ones, engage in completely unfulfilling sexual encounters, not knowing that there is more to sex than male orgasm or, knowing that there is, being afraid to ask for more. Even those women who have figured out how to incorporate their own pleasure into their sexual encounters still labor under the dominant narrative of what sex is, and often feel pressure to hurry up and get their silly business over with so that the “sex” can commence.

 

[In Bloom]

Shit post is shit. Is feminism about "attacking" men?

I've not read much feminism, but to be honest mate, all the best stuff I've seen kind of suggests that it really is all our fault. There are a lot of problems with second wave feminism*, but the one thing it was really good at was challenging** the way we, as men, tend to see the world around us.

*mostly to do with it's practical implications and the absolutely outrageous treatment of queer activists by certain radfems.
**and make no mistake, challenging is exactly what needs to happen.

 

[In Bloom]

Back on the topic, one text I've found to be a great introduction to feminism and how it fits in with other, seemingly contradictory forms of struggle against oppression was Sex, Race and Class by Selma James.

 

[The Black Hand]

Here's a thread on Radical feminist organising;

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=252245

 

[Bloody_ICE]

Feminists are often unrealistic. Their barrage of moaning at men, the constant thunder against the evils of man kind and when we men have had enough and escape to the nearest pub to end the nagging, the feminists turn on each other in their blood lust, tearing lumps out of their women kind.

 

[miss_b]

Feminists are often unrealistic. Their barrage of moaning at men, the constant thunder against the evils of man kind and when we men have had enough and escape to the nearest pub to end the nagging, the feminists turn on each other in their blood lust, tearing lumps out of their women kind.

How many feminists do you actually know? I fear the straw feminist has been invoked...let's read some common myths about feminism and have a look at how supposed feminists are represented in the media which is where most people who don't actually know what feminism is or what it does get their misguided ideas from.

 

[baldrick]

Feminists are often unrealistic. Their barrage of moaning at men, the constant thunder against the evils of man kind and when we men have had enough and escape to the nearest pub to end the nagging, the feminists turn on each other in their blood lust, tearing lumps out of their women kind.

lol

0/10. Must try harder.

 

[Bloody_ICE]

How many feminists do you actually know? I fear the straw feminist has been invoked...let's read some common myths about feminism and have a look at how supposed feminists are represented in the media which is where most people who don't actually know what feminism is or what it does get their misguided ideas from.

One day we men get their own back, we will burn our boxers and jock straps in public!

We will nag in unforgiving intolerance. We blame all women for everything wrong with the world and when questioned about it we bat our eyelashes and say "you lier, it is a common myth, manism is about equality!"

 

[cesare]

Feminists are often unrealistic. Their barrage of moaning at men, the constant thunder against the evils of man kind and when we men have had enough and escape to the nearest pub to end the nagging, the feminists turn on each other in their blood lust, tearing lumps out of their women kind.

They're even allowed into pubs now. Nowhere is safe.

 

[sojourner]

lol

0/10. Must try harder.

And that's being generous!

 

[Bloody_ICE]

You are obviously lost in weird sterotypes against manism.

 

[cesare]

One day we men get their own back, we will burn our boxers and jock straps in public!

We will nag in unforgiving intolerance. We blame all women for everything wrong with the world and when questioned about it we bat our eyelashes and say "you lier, it is a common myth, manism is about equality!"

You will be culled and a small % of you kept on breeding farms with FHM magazines for the production of sperm for freezing.

 

[cesare]

You are obviously lost in weird sterotypes against manism.

Your time here on this planet is limited. Beware the feminists who are BEHIND YOU.

 

[Bloody_ICE]

Manism will defeat the feminists. Still not a bad idea, manism vs the feminists, they can nag at eah other.

btw quote a real mag, Nuts!

 

[cesare]

Manism will defeat the feminists. Still not a bad idea, manism vs the feminists, they can nag at eah other.

btw quote a real mag, Nuts!

Manism's success is indisputable.

 

[camouflage]

I think you mean masculinism, or to give it's popular term... fascism.

 

[Bloody_ICE]

Don't confuse me, I am making this crap up as I go along

Still I never did understand the feminism thing. Love us don't fear us.

I am sure there is a serious discussion in here somewhere but i bet you it ends with nagging.

 

[cesare]

Don't confuse me, I am making this crap up as I go along

Still I never did understand the feminism thing. Love us don't fear us.

I am sure there is a serious discussion in here somewhere but i bet you it ends with nagging.

And you'll end up down the pub instead. You may as well do it now.

 

[Bloody_ICE]

And you'll end up down the pub instead. You may as well do it now.

eh don't tempt me another few hours yet, i want to see some of the tennis, federer is playing today but oh no he is a man! the feminists won't like that lol

 

[cesare]

eh don't tempt me another few hours yet, i want to see some of the tennis, federer is playing today but oh no he is a man! the feminists won't like that lol

All feminists hate and resent men, as you say.

 

[The Black Hand]

How many feminists do you actually know? I fear the straw feminist has been invoked...let's read some common myths about feminism and have a look at how supposed feminists are represented in the media which is where most people who don't actually know what feminism is or what it does get their misguided ideas from.

Yes I agree.

 

[Bloody_ICE]

All feminists hate and resent men, as you say.

Don't know and not sure I care to be honest. Still if it keeps them happy.

As long as the tennis is good today and the weather is nice that be great.

 

[malice]

Hello,

good posts Agent Sparrow, don't very often post, but thought I'd wade in. Pootle, I know exactly what you mean when you find out someone you know shares a basic outlook and identifies themselves as feminist, it's great [do you think we should have a secret handshake?]. It doesn't mean you'll agree on everything but that you have a shared outlook. If your friend is interested, I'd recommend maybe trying to read some of the same stuff, and discussing it. A few of my friends have set up a small feminist reading group to do just this, just so we have a place to talk about all the differences and nuances of feminist thought without endlessly having to defend the term, or be ridiculed (like some of the posts on this thread).

A couple of recommendations. Susan Faludi's Backlash - it's focused very much on the 1980s backlash against feminism, but it's still very relevant, and a really good reminder of why we are not in a post-feminist world, why we still need to identify as feminists [there was a good article in the guardian yesterday that referenced it]

I've just read a book of short stories by Charlotte Perkins Gilman (The Yellow Wallpaper being the most famous), they were a lovely, witty bunch of stories, a really easy read - I reckon it would be a good start.