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Feminism and the silencing of women

mango5

Endeavour era
So it's about attempts to silence, abuse and harass women who have public voices and platforms...academics, politicians, businesswoman, in the media, etc?
Not just women who may have 'public vouces'. The links I gave don't have a comprehensive list, just a bit of context. Other posts on this thread also give examples and context. Silencing and not being heard are very big and interlinked topics.
I contributed some starting points which I found interesting. I don't understand the whole picture partly because so much of women's experience is unsaid or unheard.
 

ViolentPanda

Hardly getting over it.
So it's about attempts to silence, abuse and harass women who have public voices and platforms...academics, politicians, businesswoman, in the media, etc?
It happens way too much. Often on social media (Mary Beard got a twitter ban, as have several other female academics), but also in broadcast media. We tend to talk about John Humphreys et al talking over interviewees, but try a week of listening to Radio 4 news, and note down how often interviewees talk over male interviewees as opposed to female interviewees. It's shocking!
 

mango5

Endeavour era
Remember that Smack The Pony sketch, where there's one woman in the business meeting, and whatever she says, no one hears her? But then the fellas repeat her ideas like it's theirs? Been there, got the fucking jumper, never mind the tshirt.
As in all these threads, the workplace is an obvious context for silencing. So obvious it's uncontrovertible aside from some whataboutery. I wonder if it's why most men seem happiest confining their posts on these threads to workplace issues.

I am interested in the the less obvious situations and patterns that I probably haven't thought about enough.

Not intending to shut folk up about silencing in the workplace but keen to understand it elsewhere. I suspect it is related to 'a world designed for men' which broadly seems more about being 'invisiblised'/unseen than silenced/unheard. Don't know if that's a useful distinction or splitting hairs. :hmm:
 

sojourner

Where's me readers?
Okay - a topical example. Mate of mine runs small festivals, and she sees the imbalance between male and female acts on every single line up, so decides to do something about it. Sets one up which has female-led acts, not exclusively all-female, but female-led. All genders welcome to attend. Loads of her usual clientele boycott the first and second one, because it is sexist against men, apparently. This became an absolute onslaught of disgusting and aggressive criticism of what was simply an act of redress. It amounted to a mountain of attempts to silence her, and in turn, all the acts who played at the festival. It led to huge financial losses for her.

Barely any of her critics accepted in any way that there was an imbalance at every single other festival, or if they grudgingly did, it was accompanied with 'but there aren't enough female acts/there are way more male acts', which is utter rubbish.
 

Poot

Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk
Constant. My boss even said today 'you're probably going to report me for being a misogynist, aren't you?' and I just laughed it off and quietly hated myself. Because it's just easier. I won't even go into what he had said because every day, every hour it's something new. He's not even the worst offender - at least he knows he's sexist :rolleyes: And when he's not being a dick he's okay. Yes I do know what I just wrote.
 

sojourner

Where's me readers?
The amount of times men (of all ages) have told me that I am wrong, and there is no such thing as sexism 'anymore' :facepalm: When I have used specific examples, they have also told me that that could happen to anyone, not just women, it wasn't 'just' sexist, that I was being too sensitive, seeing things that aren't there, and that old chestnut, not having a sense of humour.
 

S☼I

ifyalikeitthenushouldaputadonkonit
As in all these threads, the workplace is an obvious context for silencing. So obvious it's uncontrovertible aside from some whataboutery. I wonder if it's why most men seem happiest confining their posts on these threads to workplace issues.

I am interested in the the less obvious situations and patterns that I probably haven't thought about enough.

Not intending to shut folk up about silencing in the workplace but keen to understand it elsewhere. I suspect it is related to 'a world designed for men' which broadly seems more about being 'invisiblised'/unseen than silenced/unheard. Don't know if that's a useful distinction or splitting hairs. :hmm:
Is there a difference between the dynamics inside the home and those outside/in the workplace/when other men are around? I'm genuinely struggling to think of any friend or relative's relationship where it isn't pretty well balanced or even matriarchal in terms of decision making or being heard as far as I can tell. Caveat: I'm not friends with any blokey blokes/"alphas" etc.
 
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Manter

Lunch Mob
The amount of times men (of all ages) have told me that I am wrong, and there is no such thing as sexism 'anymore' :facepalm: When I have used specific examples, they have also told me that that could happen to anyone, not just women, it wasn't 'just' sexist, that I was being too sensitive, seeing things that aren't there, and that old chestnut, not having a sense of humour.
I have a cross stitch picture above my dressing table that says feminist killjoy for just this reason ;)
 

Sue

Well-Known Member
The amount of times men (of all ages) have told me that I am wrong, and there is no such thing as sexism 'anymore' :facepalm: When I have used specific examples, they have also told me that that could happen to anyone, not just women, it wasn't 'just' sexist, that I was being too sensitive, seeing things that aren't there, and that old chestnut, not having a sense of humour.
You obvs just hate men really.
 

mango5

Endeavour era
Is there a difference between the dynamics inside the home and those outside/in the workplace/when other men are around? I'm genuinely struggling to think of any friend or relative's relationship where it isn't pretty well balanced or even matriarchal in terms of decision making or being heard as far as I can tell. Caveat: I'm not friends with any blokey blokes/"alphas" etc.
My gut reaction was to say you can't really know what goes on behind closed doors. Then I realised that closed doors are literally a silencing technique used against women.

Note I am not generally going to caveat NAMNAW etc because I am interested in patterns not specifics. sojourner that was a brilliant example of the festival organiser :(
 

S☼I

ifyalikeitthenushouldaputadonkonit
My gut reaction was to say you can't really know what goes on behind closed doors. Then I realised that closed doors are literally a silencing technique used against women.
No, you can't, but you can have a pretty good idea depending on how well you know people I would say.
 

Sue

Well-Known Member
Is there a difference between the dynamics inside the home and those outside/in the workplace/when other men are around? I'm genuinely struggling to think of any friend or relative's relationship where it isn't pretty well balanced or even matriarchal in terms of decision making or being heard as far as I can tell. Caveat: I'm not friends with any blokey blokes/"alphas" etc.
You never really know what goes on in other people's relationships. And, for various reasons, some women will collude in pretending things are well balanced, even when they aren't.

As an example. A couple I've known for a very long time (in fact I introduced them). They've been together for nearly 20 years, got teenage kids etc. You'd never know to meet them that he withholds money from her as a means of undermining her/control. (He has a professional job, she's working part time in a minimum wage job and pays for all the kids' activities and stuff and always has done. He buys very expensive gadgets and goes out a lot, she can barely afford a new pair of jeans.)

When she first told me and another female friend this (it came out by accident), she kept making excuses for why this was. She does this less now after seeing our reactions. No-one else knows any of this though and would be astonished to hear it.
 

S☼I

ifyalikeitthenushouldaputadonkonit
Sure, you can never completely tell. I'm only going on my own experience. Like I said I'm not friends with any twats. Probably why I don't have many friends. I don't really tolerate wankers and generally don't feel comfortable around very blokey blokes.

What I was getting at was a more general distinction between the balance between roles in heterosexual couples and the balance between men and women "in the world", where the structures and systems are harder to align.

The other day Mrs SI and I were talking to a bloke who knew her a little but had never met me, and he started going on about the bad traffic to me as though naturally I would have been the driver. (I explained pretty quickly he wasn't talking to the right one if us about driving and he then continued talking, a little sheepishly, to her.) Does this mean he necessarily silences his wife/partner just because those patriarchal structures led him to assume Man=driver=in charge? That's what I'm wondering.
 

Poot

Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk
Sure, you can never completely tell. I'm only going on my own experience. Like I said I'm not friends with any twats. Probably why I don't have many friends. I don't really tolerate wankers and generally don't feel comfortable around very blokey blokes.

What I was getting at was a more general distinction between the balance between roles in heterosexual couples and the balance between men and women "in the world", where the structures and systems are harder to align.

The other day Mrs SI and I were talking to a bloke who knew her a little but had never met me, and he started going on about the bad traffic to me as though naturally I would have been the driver. (I explained pretty quickly he wasn't talking to the right one if us about driving and he then continued talking, a little sheepishly, to her.) Does this mean he necessarily silences his wife/partner just because those patriarchal structures led him to assume Man=driver=in charge? That's what I'm wondering.
Ha! Same here - I drive, my husband doesn't! And my colleagues find this endlessly fascinating and buying a car is, er, interesting.

Yes, there is no doubt that the patriarchy cuts both ways. But interestingly this is a phenomenon amongst my friends where women have had to learn to drive and the men don't see it as being necessary because they haven't had to get buggies on the bus.
 

Looby

Well-Known Member
Sure, you can never completely tell. I'm only going on my own experience. Like I said I'm not friends with any twats. Probably why I don't have many friends. I don't really tolerate wankers and generally don't feel comfortable around very blokey blokes.
I promise you that you probably wouldn’t know. Out of all the abusive men I’ve known, only one of them was an outwardly aggressive ‘alpha’ male type. Actually, I can handle them much better because they’re more of a known quantity. My ex was like that, violent and aggressive with every one so I didn’t need to convince anyone what a pig he was.

The rest that I’ve known have been charming, romantic, attentive and outwardly seemed like nice blokes. Men like this get away with it precisely because they’re all of those things, especially in the early days.

They know how to groom, not just their partners but friends, colleagues etc

‘Oh no, not James, he’s such a lovely bloke. He’s not abusive, just a bit old fashioned.’ Etc etc I’m watching someone I love be abused through the courts by a ‘nice’ bloke.

I’m as sure as I can be that my male friends aren’t controlling or abusive but I don’t really know.
 

S☼I

ifyalikeitthenushouldaputadonkonit
It must be said that I'm only speaking about couples where I've known both people.

Was talking about it with my best mate in the pub the other day and while we acknowledged silencing of women in the home happens in impossible to calculate amounts it wasn't something we recognised from any of our past relationships, our families, etc. General feeling was that our experience of this stuff is that societally it's systemic and embedded; in the house fellas do what they're told.
 

Manter

Lunch Mob
Is there a difference between the dynamics inside the home and those outside/in the workplace/when other men are around? I'm genuinely struggling to think of any friend or relative's relationship where it isn't pretty well balanced or even matriarchal in terms of decision making or being heard as far as I can tell. Caveat: I'm not friends with any blokey blokes/"alphas" etc.
I don’t think it’s about alphas or twats or abuse. Most women do the emotional labour in a relationship, and take the ‘caring’ role. That includes being an emotional sounding board, absorbing emotion, especially a male partner’s emotion: etc etc etc. My partner is in no way abusive, or a twat, or an ‘alpha’- but I often don’t bother to share emotional stuff I need to think through, or play it down. That’s a deep seated patriarchal assumption that he takes up more emotional space than I do. I remember birthdays, favourite foods, deal with everyone’s emotions, and keep my own needs silent. That’s not, I suspect, unusual.
 
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