Feminism and the Gender Pay Gap

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by friendofdorothy, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    I hired a wife. And my career took off.

    I see this a lot in the wealthier parts of London. Well off middle classes using South Americans and Filipinos to do all the domestic work and childcare. Whilst they get on with their careers.

    Despite what this article says these women aren't raking it in.

    These women come from less well off parts of the world. Live far away from their own families. From chatting to some of them they miss their families.

    There is also an inequality gap between different parts of the world.
     
    campanula likes this.
  2. campanula

    campanula plant a seed

    I want my wife back. Please don't berate the mother - yeah, I rather think so. She is already happy to spout that absolute shittishness that caring is the role of a wife. Not a worker, a helper, an assistant...even a fucking childcarer...but a wife. Same old, same old...it isn't even the money - it's the attitude...and coming from a successful professional... Just get to fuck.
     
    seventh bullet and Gramsci like this.
  3. Rutita1

    Rutita1 Sassy McFlashy

    I leaned in. And my hair fell out.
     
    Gramsci likes this.
  4. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    I was trying not to blame the individual. I do think when looking at feminism and the pay gap it can be seen mainly in European/ North American terms. Comparing pay differences between men and women in different European countries for example. Or looking at it in national terms.

    An other dimension is that of labour of women who migrate from poorer countries to wealthy ones to do domestic labour. They are part of the transnational labour force.
     
  5. campanula

    campanula plant a seed

    Yep - failed there...but I was so cross I even forgot to do that quote-y thing. Notable how internalised the idea of a 'wife' has become with housework and childcare...and the downgrading of such work by professional men and women (I have been that cleaner).
    However, I have to say that for me, childcare was the hardest, most stressful job I have had in my whole life - I was lonely, tired, anxious, broke. My partner would gaily prance out of the door as early as possible and hang out, away from domestic chaos until there was a fair chance the infant was sleeping some time after 9pm. He would then regale me with tedious renditions of the stressfulness of his day (in a nice, warm building, with an ever-open canteen, chatting with co-workers and fiddling about with CAD). His work finished when he left the office - mine was never-ending.
    Incidentally, Rutita1 , I got stress related alopecia after the birth of my first.
     
    polly, JimW, trashpony and 2 others like this.
  6. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    I don't think our failed in your post 62. I agree with what you said.

    It is that ,to take a step back from her, the article shows why the gender pay gap should not just be seen from a Euro centric middle class viewpoint.
     
    seventh bullet, polly and TopCat like this.
  7. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    The entire thread discussion has been about trying not to do that, talking about ‘feminised’ and therefore undervalued work.
     
  8. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    I know that. Don't get what point you are making.

    The post you quote was reply to campanula . I wasn't disagreeing with that poster.
     
  9. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    Relevant article in todays news
    UK workers would back pay transparency to fight inequality
     
    friendofdorothy and Sue like this.
  10. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    BBC Radio 4 - Analysis, The Real Gender Pay Gap

    The Real Gender Pay Gap

    Just finished. On I player now.

    Programme has two interlinked themes. How stats show women earn less. Secondly how forms of Labour are not recognised and not included in traditional economics GDP. Work such as caring.

    Breast feeding is exmple. Bottle feeding ends up being included in GDP. Breast feeding isn't. Despite it being good for babies long term development. Economist on programme worked out its worth three million a year.

    Emotional Labour is another example.

    I think the programme was part critique of conventional economics. Feminist economics includes reproduction of society. Emotional Labour and various forms of caring- which is imo part emotional Labour.

    In this country the programme said the ONS calculate unpaid work. But don't include it in GDP in UK.

    I would guess its gone up in UK. Tory "austerity" to bail out the parasites in the City means more unpaid work to keep social services going that help to bring up children. See this in my area.

    Im not keen on commodifying all aspects of human existence in a Capitalist GDP. But , to be realistic , I think showing how work in the broadest sense should be recognised is positive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
    trashpony and friendofdorothy like this.
  11. Sapphireblue

    Sapphireblue Well-Known Member

    my gender pay gap example is my sisters, and from what i can tell it happened entirely because her senior management were arseholes and no-one in HR noticed / cared what decisions they made. not sure how you can prevent that sort of thing.
    basically she went off on maternity leave and when she returned her subordinate who had been helping cover her absence was now her boss. he had much less experience than her and most notably didn't have the qualification that was apparently legally required. he made her job much more difficult and obviously was physically in the position that was her next logical promotion so was a blocker on that as well.
     
    Gramsci likes this.
  12. Sapphireblue

    Sapphireblue Well-Known Member

    i suppose technically that's less about the pay gap and more about how having children holds you back at work. she went back full time as well (grand-parents available to help) but it did stall her career for a while.
     
  13. trashpony

    trashpony Ovaries and tings

    I listened to the Gender Pay Gap programme last night. The thing that struck me was that women do about £100 more of unpaid labour every week more than men.

    And Sapphireblue they have found that women are paid less whether or not we have children. I know that I have been held back on the basis that I might/will have children. My colleague that is most successful had her children within 3 years (mat leave>back to work pregnant>mat leave) by the time she was 32. She made it *very* clear that she was done having children at that point.
     
  14. Sapphireblue

    Sapphireblue Well-Known Member

    Being held back because you 'might' have children. Christ. I know it theoretically happens but it's just so awful to know an example of it actually happens.
     
    Celyn likes this.
  15. Poot

    Poot Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk

    A couple of weeks ago on Saturday I went to a small festival with my husband. His colleague T was there. T had set up three podiums and at each podium a scientist was showing children some interesting science.

    'I can't join you for a beer' T said 'I have to take the podiums back to a place 50 miles away in a couple of hours'.

    T is brilliant, by the way. Everyone would tell you that. She is very enthusiastic.

    'Were you not asked along?' I asked him after we had spoken to T. 'Did you not fancy it?'

    'Oh, it's something that the Women In Science do', he said dismissively.

    'Do they get paid for it or do they get time off in lieu?' I asked, already knowing the answer.

    'No! No one gets time off in lieu! We all work bloody hard!' he said defensively. And he's absolutely right, he does work extremely hard. Really, really hard. They all do. But still. It made me think very hard about the whole 'yes, you should definitely encourage girls into science. But you'll have to do it in your own time' and how that could possibly be an extra burden...
     
  16. Mrs Miggins

    Mrs Miggins There's been a slight cheese accident

    Absolutely years ago when I first moved to London I was actually asked at interview whether I might be planning to have children in the near future because apparently the management were very wary of taking someone on who was.
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  17. friendofdorothy

    friendofdorothy it is so much worse than Thatcherism now

    swiss women standing up against discrimination.

    Swiss women stage national strike for equality
     
  18. friendofdorothy

    friendofdorothy it is so much worse than Thatcherism now

    Gender pay gap grows at hundreds of firms
     
  19. ElizabethofYork

    ElizabethofYork Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    That kind of reminds me of being asked at an interview many moons ago what my father did for a living. When I asked why, they said they wanted to work out what class I was. Oh, he's an electrician I said. Then I added And my mum's a Bank Manager.

    I didn't get the job. :thumbs:
     
  20. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

  21. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    Not strictly on the pay gap but I thought this was the most appropriate thread
    Top engineering university to open jobs exclusively to women (news story)
    Female academics are too scarce. So we’re banning job applications from men (opinion piece - terrible and inaccurate headline BTW)
    Pieces are rather light on details mind, are we talking about permanent or fixed-term jobs here? Wikipedia has the university "home to about 240 professors, ..., 200 post-doc students and 3000 regular employees", in which case the 150 (academic?) posts that are expected to become vacant during the next five years seem very high percentage for continuing positions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
    friendofdorothy likes this.
  22. pengaleng

    pengaleng Lil' J Pengele PhD. The Angel of Sesh

    gender pay gap isnt a thing, it just averages everything it dont account for hours worked etc lol

    it is illegal to pay people different for the same work, has been for a while.

    equality isnt priority. ^^ links lol all womens shortlists can fuck off.
     
  23. equationgirl

    equationgirl Respect my existence or expect my resistance

    Some of the post doc positions won't be for students, plus there will be new positions for new projects as universities constantly apply for funding. I would expect some of the non academic positions to be included as well.
     
  24. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    That's what I thought too. Of course if this employer was really serious about tackling the gender imbalance and job insecurity it would be making these jobs continuing positions.
     
  25. equationgirl

    equationgirl Respect my existence or expect my resistance

    Tenure? That's an old boys club if ever I saw one. Very hard for anyone to get into. I know one woman that's done it, but she had to move universities to do so, and not the same country at that. Many women have a story like mine, for example. Did PhD, supervisor wouldn't support them for a postdoc. Got a job in industry and left academia. I wasn't heartbroken as such, as I do not have an attitude suitable for academia (I'm too outspoken) but he said he would support me and then didn't.

    I know other women who got sick of endless short term postdocs, and didn't get a tenured position, or who at some point had to make a choice between having a family or pursuing tenure. I know women who've moved to the academic support side of things because they were sick of getting grant applications rejected.

    Academia needs an overhaul.
     
  26. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model every man and every woman is a star

    The number of women with PhDs I've met who are shelving books in libraries, it's ridiculous.
     
  27. equationgirl

    equationgirl Respect my existence or expect my resistance

    I loved working in the uni library when I was doing my PhD. But can imagine there are lots in libraries afterwards.

    See also, uni administrative support, research grant support, commercialisation and so on. Even the research funding councils want it PhD for their programme Office roles (terrible pay by the way).
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  28. PursuedByBears

    PursuedByBears Go stick your head in a pig

    It's not a popular view in academia but I've long thought that there's far too many PhD students compared to the number of viable postdoc opportunities available.
     
  29. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model every man and every woman is a star

    I think it's something like 80% of people who get a PhD who don't give a job in academia. Which is an awful number and while some of them will have posts in industry or in other posts relevant to their qualifications so many others are in essence thrown on the scrapheap with their knowledge, skills and abilities wasted
     
    PursuedByBears likes this.
  30. 8ball

    8ball Resident Right-Winger

    Lots get decent jobs that are tangentially related to their subject. We get the odd mathematician and whatnot at my place.
     
    Pickman's model likes this.

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