Feminism and a world designed for men

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by friendofdorothy, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    In the past I've interviewed men and women in respect of whom I've been familiar with their work. Typically, the men claim credit for the work of others, whereas women often credit their team for their own achievements!
  2. Rutita1

    Rutita1 Council Estate Socialist


    This thing

    This object

    Yes Mr 93 year old letch you can not only make inappropriate comments about my wife I will insult her further by letting you think you would be 'up to the job'.

    Uff, they are both disgusting.
  3. Lupa

    Lupa Well-Known Member

    My post was in response to Manters about the woman with the physics book saying she didnt understand half of it...in a self deprecating way. I seriously doubt a man studying the same book would have come out with similar in order to make someone else feel whatever...

    In terms of their accomplishments/ qualifications/ job experience...knowledge... I have never met a man yet who dumbed themselves down the way the woman in Manter's post did.

    I'd like to say that there probably are men who when asked about the physics book they're reading turn and say "I don't understand half of it", but I just don't think it would happen.

    On another tack...I'll never forget being told how menstruation works... by a guy...as if he had experienced it. :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
    friendofdorothy likes this.
  4. ElizabethofYork

    ElizabethofYork Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    I really hope this is starting to change. Younger women haven't so much been brought up to be modest and self deprecating. It's us older ones who were force fed the idea of never "showing off".
    campanula and friendofdorothy like this.
  5. Poot

    Poot Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk

    Hmm. I don't know about that. The word 'sassy' seems to have entered my daughter's vocabulary. I hate it.
    campanula likes this.
  6. JuanTwoThree

    JuanTwoThree Back to the mug-shot

    I think there is a very male hypobolic self-deprecation that ends being exactly the opposite:

    'A little place in Scotland' is an enormous house

    'I dabble in art' which means a massive private collection

    'I'm quite handy in goal'
    friendofdorothy likes this.
  7. ElizabethofYork

    ElizabethofYork Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    But isn't "sassy" seen as a positive thing?
  8. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Why are men or boys never called sassy?
    Celyn, ElizabethofYork and Poot like this.
  9. Poot

    Poot Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk

    It's still very much used as a put-down, from what I can gather. I'm no expert, mind. I am old :D

    Also, as Athos says about making the distinction, I don't really see why we need a word for it for girls. Like feisty or bossy.
    Celyn likes this.
  10. spanglechick

    spanglechick High Empress of Dressing Up

    Gay men are.
  11. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    I didn't know that. But I think the point remains the same i.e. women (or men perceived to be 'feminine') are expected to be docile, to the extent that there's a slightly mocking term for those who assert themselves ('get above their place'), whereas it's just taken for granted that straight men are assertive.
    Celyn and Manter like this.
  12. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    Sassy, bossy, feisty, sparky, ‘though she be but little she is fierce’ T-shirts. It’s the same toxic shit
  13. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    And I’m not sure men would do that about a proper work thing that impacted their income. I’ve never heard an exchange that was ‘can you do x spreadsheet’ (to a woman who could do it standing on her head) and she replies with a doubtful ‘I can try’

    You’d get ‘yes’ or ‘I’ve never done it before but I can try’ or a discussion about format and parameters- but never that instinctive stepping back
    friendofdorothy likes this.
  14. JuanTwoThree

    JuanTwoThree Back to the mug-shot

    NPR Choice page

    In its more pejorative sense it has an unpleasant echo of 'uppity'
  15. chilango

    chilango Neither Westminster nor Brussels....

    I dunno. Maybe.

    All my life I've done this. To the point it's caused material problems. At work. At home. But especially at work.

    Co-workers and bosses have sensed weakness in this. Which in turn has further undermined my confidence in asserting my abilities/knowledge.

    Perhaps that underlines your point. That, as a whitecishet middle aged, "middle class" man, it's not expected that I'd be downplaying my abilities/knowledge/experience. So it's assumed that I'm genuinely less able.

    But then, in areas that I am (self)confident (my studies for example) I'm discouraged from being assertive as it makes other feel intimidated or "lesser".
    Artaxerxes and Almor like this.
  16. mx wcfc

    mx wcfc Well-Known Member

    I haven't got involved in this thread for many reasons, but I was at a seminar today and it started with a group of people ( a "panel") talking at us (not unusual) . It was "quite good", in that there were two BAME blokes, one white middle aged bloke, one white woman and a BAME woman. Except that no one had explained to anyone that the "panel" would be perched on high stools, and no one had told these women about that, so they were sat perched in short skirts on these stools, despite being leading people in their field. The men, were sitting on the same stools with their bulges on display.

    It was fairly obvious - the organisers should have figured it out beforehand.

    Very much a world designed for men, even where women at the top of their game are involved.

    (apologies, but I am actually a bit pissed off)(but the women involved were a bit fucked off)
  17. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    Oh. Chairs. The chairs in office receptions that put your knees above your hips so you can’t stand up gracefully- especially if you are in heels. The chairs that cling to your skirt so it rides up during the day. The silly perchy bar stool things. The ‘booths’ where you end up trying to show a colleague stuff on a coffee table where he can see up your skirt, or you are awkwardly close together on some snuggler arrangement in corporate colours... Endlessly irritating things, chairs*

    See also glass staircases, steps that are more than one but less than two pace lengths for the average woman, cupboards and lockers half the women in the office can’t reach....

    *(My office has clever ergonomic ones that are about £500 each and are incredibly comfy even after a long day. And a load of silly ones in breakout areas)
  18. quimcunx

    quimcunx protestant traybake

    Going back a bit to things being designed for men I am reminded of being struck by the change in pram options since men became more involved in pushing the fuckers.

    Back in the day there seemed to be two types, the unwieldy silverline nanny model or the lightweight buggies that were barely bigger than the toy versions. Nowadays they are staggering feats of engineering with myriad choices to consider including 3 wheeled jogging prams because babies should be designed to fit round men's interests rather than womens activities being constrained by and designed around activities for children.
    friendofdorothy, Poot, Celyn and 2 others like this.
  19. JuanTwoThree

    JuanTwoThree Back to the mug-shot

    Roll on more men getting into ironing then. Even in their highest position ironing boards are back-breakingly low for me.

    (Note how I drop in that I do the ironing)
    trashpony and existentialist like this.
  20. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    There was a really interesting podcast about ‘status prams’ (including the fact they are called travel systems :D) and how they were invented. It was basically a bloke deciding he wanted something pretty. Let me see if I can find it
  21. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    Pickman's model likes this.
  22. kabbes

    kabbes "A top 400 poster"

    What point were you actually trying to make with that post other than the part in parentheses?
  23. Poot

    Poot Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk

    Fuck yeah. You can thank the patriarchy for women-sized ironing boards and I'll back you all the way. Women-sized ironing boards and man-sized gym equipment. Surely we can do better than this!!
  24. JuanTwoThree

    JuanTwoThree Back to the mug-shot


    Pickman's model and TopCat like this.
  25. JuanTwoThree

    JuanTwoThree Back to the mug-shot

    The dozens of things designed for women, presumably by men, for stereotypically 'petite' women (My mother is six-foot and has complained about her tiny surroundings all her life) give men a taste of what it must be like for women using the hundreds of things designed for (again stereotypical) men.
  26. Poot

    Poot Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk

    Yes! Except that men are also the default so it goes a bit deeper than ironing boards in our case and most things are just generally assumed that you are male.
    campanula likes this.
  27. JuanTwoThree

    JuanTwoThree Back to the mug-shot

    Tens of thousands of things then.
  28. ElizabethofYork

    ElizabethofYork Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    I'm not sure exactly which thread this should be on but .....

    On LinkedIn today a man was praising his solicitor (male) because he'd put a meeting back half an hour so that he could take his kid to nursery. There were loads of other men joining in and congratulating this paragon of virtue.

    A woman pointed out that if she had asked to start a meeting later because she was taking her children to school, that would NOT have been seen as a positive thing. In fact it would be career suicide.
  29. S☼I

    S☼I campestral seneschal


    I'm going to put this on the "male experience of patriarchy" thread that chilango has started, but when my daughter was little I was the one who stopped working to look after her in the day. Several times I had conversations on the school run about great it was I was managing two children on said journey, how wonderful it was to see etc, the odd exclamation of surprise I could do a decent ponytail...sometimes by women doing exactly what I was doing. I even laughed it off a couple of times with "I'm only doing the same as everyone else here" which was met with hilarity as if I wasn't. Maybe because of their partners not doing that stuff, or no partner, or not the norm. It was nice to have it commented on but felt a bit undeserved.

    Not sure how much it's changed in the decade since I started doing school runs...there seems to be more dads taking their kids but it's still overwhelmingly mums. I haven't asked the dads if they get the "oh wows". Maybe I should.
  30. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    So much this. Best advice I got coming back from mat leave was not to be too honest about where I was, why I was late/leaving early etc
    friendofdorothy and Mrs Miggins like this.

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