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Feminism and a world designed for men

Rutita1

Council Estate Socialist
You could handle it' said the leader of the free world, pointing to his wife.

D-Day veteran, 93, makes flirty remark about Melania Trump to US President

Yeah, I know, cheap shot, and I'm no fan of Melania Trump either, but no one deserves to be treated as property.

It.

This thing


This object

Yes Mr 93 year old letch you can not only make inappropriate comments about my wife I will insult her further by letting you think you would be 'up to the job'.

Uff, they are both disgusting.
 

Lupa

Well-Known Member
Are you serious?
My post was in response to Manters about the woman with the physics book saying she didnt understand half of it...in a self deprecating way. I seriously doubt a man studying the same book would have come out with similar in order to make someone else feel whatever...

In terms of their accomplishments/ qualifications/ job experience...knowledge... I have never met a man yet who dumbed themselves down the way the woman in Manter's post did.

I'd like to say that there probably are men who when asked about the physics book they're reading turn and say "I don't understand half of it", but I just don't think it would happen.

On another tack...I'll never forget being told how menstruation works... by a guy...as if he had experienced it. :rolleyes:
 
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ElizabethofYork

Witchsmeller Pursuivant
In the past I've interviewed men and women in respect of whom I've been familiar with their work. Typically, the men claim credit for the work of others, whereas women often credit their team for their own achievements!
I really hope this is starting to change. Younger women haven't so much been brought up to be modest and self deprecating. It's us older ones who were force fed the idea of never "showing off".
 

Poot

Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk
I really hope this is starting to change. Younger women haven't so much been brought up to be modest and self deprecating. It's us older ones who were force fed the idea of never "showing off".
Hmm. I don't know about that. The word 'sassy' seems to have entered my daughter's vocabulary. I hate it.
 

JuanTwoThree

Spurius Bollox
I think there is a very male hypobolic self-deprecation that ends being exactly the opposite:

'A little place in Scotland' is an enormous house

'I dabble in art' which means a massive private collection

'I'm quite handy in goal'
 

Poot

Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk
But isn't "sassy" seen as a positive thing?
It's still very much used as a put-down, from what I can gather. I'm no expert, mind. I am old :D

Also, as Athos says about making the distinction, I don't really see why we need a word for it for girls. Like feisty or bossy.
 

Athos

Well-Known Member
Gay men are.
I didn't know that. But I think the point remains the same i.e. women (or men perceived to be 'feminine') are expected to be docile, to the extent that there's a slightly mocking term for those who assert themselves ('get above their place'), whereas it's just taken for granted that straight men are assertive.
 

Manter

Lunch Mob
I think there is a very male hypobolic self-deprecation that ends being exactly the opposite:

'A little place in Scotland' is an enormous house

'I dabble in art' which means a massive private collection

'I'm quite handy in goal'
And I’m not sure men would do that about a proper work thing that impacted their income. I’ve never heard an exchange that was ‘can you do x spreadsheet’ (to a woman who could do it standing on her head) and she replies with a doubtful ‘I can try’

You’d get ‘yes’ or ‘I’ve never done it before but I can try’ or a discussion about format and parameters- but never that instinctive stepping back
 

chilango

Neither Westminster nor Brussels....
And I’m not sure men would do that about a proper work thing that impacted their income. I’ve never heard an exchange that was ‘can you do x spreadsheet’ (to a woman who could do it standing on her head) and she replies with a doubtful ‘I can try’

You’d get ‘yes’ or ‘I’ve never done it before but I can try’ or a discussion about format and parameters- but never that instinctive stepping back
I dunno. Maybe.

All my life I've done this. To the point it's caused material problems. At work. At home. But especially at work.

Co-workers and bosses have sensed weakness in this. Which in turn has further undermined my confidence in asserting my abilities/knowledge.

Perhaps that underlines your point. That, as a whitecishet middle aged, "middle class" man, it's not expected that I'd be downplaying my abilities/knowledge/experience. So it's assumed that I'm genuinely less able.

But then, in areas that I am (self)confident (my studies for example) I'm discouraged from being assertive as it makes other feel intimidated or "lesser".
 

mx wcfc

Well-Known Member
I haven't got involved in this thread for many reasons, but I was at a seminar today and it started with a group of people ( a "panel") talking at us (not unusual) . It was "quite good", in that there were two BAME blokes, one white middle aged bloke, one white woman and a BAME woman. Except that no one had explained to anyone that the "panel" would be perched on high stools, and no one had told these women about that, so they were sat perched in short skirts on these stools, despite being leading people in their field. The men, were sitting on the same stools with their bulges on display.

It was fairly obvious - the organisers should have figured it out beforehand.

Very much a world designed for men, even where women at the top of their game are involved.

(apologies, but I am actually a bit pissed off)(but the women involved were a bit fucked off)
 

Manter

Lunch Mob
I haven't got involved in this thread for many reasons, but I was at a seminar today and it started with a group of people ( a "panel") talking at us (not unusual) . It was "quite good", in that there were two BAME blokes, one white middle aged bloke, one white woman and a BAME woman. Except that no one had explained to anyone that the "panel" would be perched on high stools, and no one had told these women about that, so they were sat perched in short skirts on these stools, despite being leading people in their field. The men, were sitting on the same stools with their bulges on display.

It was fairly obvious - the organisers should have figured it out beforehand.

Very much a world designed for men, even where women at the top of their game are involved.

(apologies, but I am actually a bit pissed off)(but the women involved were a bit fucked off)
Oh. Chairs. The chairs in office receptions that put your knees above your hips so you can’t stand up gracefully- especially if you are in heels. The chairs that cling to your skirt so it rides up during the day. The silly perchy bar stool things. The ‘booths’ where you end up trying to show a colleague stuff on a coffee table where he can see up your skirt, or you are awkwardly close together on some snuggler arrangement in corporate colours... Endlessly irritating things, chairs*

See also glass staircases, steps that are more than one but less than two pace lengths for the average woman, cupboards and lockers half the women in the office can’t reach....

*(My office has clever ergonomic ones that are about £500 each and are incredibly comfy even after a long day. And a load of silly ones in breakout areas)
 

quimcunx

protestant traybake
Going back a bit to things being designed for men I am reminded of being struck by the change in pram options since men became more involved in pushing the fuckers.

Back in the day there seemed to be two types, the unwieldy silverline nanny model or the lightweight buggies that were barely bigger than the toy versions. Nowadays they are staggering feats of engineering with myriad choices to consider including 3 wheeled jogging prams because babies should be designed to fit round men's interests rather than womens activities being constrained by and designed around activities for children.
 

Manter

Lunch Mob
Going back a bit to things being designed for men I am reminded of being struck by the change in pram options since men became more involved in pushing the fuckers.

Back in the day there seemed to be two types, the unwieldy silverline nanny model or the lightweight buggies that were barely bigger than the toy versions. Nowadays they are staggering feats of engineering with myriad choices to consider including 3 wheeled jogging prams because babies should be designed to fit round men's interests rather than womens activities being constrained by and designed around activities for children.
There was a really interesting podcast about ‘status prams’ (including the fact they are called travel systems :D) and how they were invented. It was basically a bloke deciding he wanted something pretty. Let me see if I can find it
 

kabbes

"A top 400 poster"
Roll on more men getting into ironing then. Even in their highest position ironing boards are back-breakingly low for me.

(Note how I drop in that I do the ironing)
What point were you actually trying to make with that post other than the part in parentheses?
 

Poot

Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk
Roll on more men getting into ironing then. Even in their highest position ironing boards are back-breakingly low for me.

(Note how I drop in that I do the ironing)
Fuck yeah. You can thank the patriarchy for women-sized ironing boards and I'll back you all the way. Women-sized ironing boards and man-sized gym equipment. Surely we can do better than this!!
 

JuanTwoThree

Spurius Bollox
The dozens of things designed for women, presumably by men, for stereotypically 'petite' women (My mother is six-foot and has complained about her tiny surroundings all her life) give men a taste of what it must be like for women using the hundreds of things designed for (again stereotypical) men.
 

Poot

Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk
The dozens of things designed for women, presumably by men, for stereotypically 'petite' women (My mother is six-foot and has complained about her tiny surroundings all her life) give men a taste of what it must be like for women using the hundreds of things designed for (again stereotypical) men.
Yes! Except that men are also the default so it goes a bit deeper than ironing boards in our case and most things are just generally assumed that you are male.
 

ElizabethofYork

Witchsmeller Pursuivant
I'm not sure exactly which thread this should be on but .....

On LinkedIn today a man was praising his solicitor (male) because he'd put a meeting back half an hour so that he could take his kid to nursery. There were loads of other men joining in and congratulating this paragon of virtue.

A woman pointed out that if she had asked to start a meeting later because she was taking her children to school, that would NOT have been seen as a positive thing. In fact it would be career suicide.
 

S☼I

ifyalikeitthenushouldaputadonkonit
I'm not sure exactly which thread this should be on but .....

On LinkedIn today a man was praising his solicitor (male) because he'd put a meeting back half an hour so that he could take his kid to nursery. There were loads of other men joining in and congratulating this paragon of virtue.

A woman pointed out that if she had asked to start a meeting later because she was taking her children to school, that would NOT have been seen as a positive thing. In fact it would be career suicide.
:facepalm:

I'm going to put this on the "male experience of patriarchy" thread that chilango has started, but when my daughter was little I was the one who stopped working to look after her in the day. Several times I had conversations on the school run about great it was I was managing two children on said journey, how wonderful it was to see etc, the odd exclamation of surprise I could do a decent ponytail...sometimes by women doing exactly what I was doing. I even laughed it off a couple of times with "I'm only doing the same as everyone else here" which was met with hilarity as if I wasn't. Maybe because of their partners not doing that stuff, or no partner, or not the norm. It was nice to have it commented on but felt a bit undeserved.

Not sure how much it's changed in the decade since I started doing school runs...there seems to be more dads taking their kids but it's still overwhelmingly mums. I haven't asked the dads if they get the "oh wows". Maybe I should.
 

Manter

Lunch Mob
I'm not sure exactly which thread this should be on but .....

On LinkedIn today a man was praising his solicitor (male) because he'd put a meeting back half an hour so that he could take his kid to nursery. There were loads of other men joining in and congratulating this paragon of virtue.

A woman pointed out that if she had asked to start a meeting later because she was taking her children to school, that would NOT have been seen as a positive thing. In fact it would be career suicide.
So much this. Best advice I got coming back from mat leave was not to be too honest about where I was, why I was late/leaving early etc
 
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