Feminism and a world designed for men

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by friendofdorothy, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. friendofdorothy

    friendofdorothy it is so much worse than Thatcherism now

    Interested piece in the paper about Parkinson being unrepentant for the sexist way he interviewed Helen Mirren in the 1975. It was 'of its time' he says. 'No harm done' he says.

    His kind of blatant 'how can I take you serious if you have breasts' talk certainly blighted my younger life. Certainly that kind of personal talk was rife when I started work. Perhaps its usually expressed less blatently today - but as I hear from my female young relatives it certainly hasn't disappeared completely.
     
    Flipstick and tim like this.
  2. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    I don’t really know where this goes, but I watched a really interesting interaction recently. Bakerloo line on the way into work. Youngish (30 ish), attractive woman in a suit reading a book on theoretical physics. Not phd stuff, but the difficult end of popular science.

    One of those random things happened which makes everyone on the tube move around and make eye contact and sort of interact with each other in a way we Londoners normally avoid. And someone remarked as all the kerfuffle was settling down, what’s that you’re reading. Woman turned it so the cover was facing the man who had asked, (who said wow, impressive) and then sort of laughed and said ‘not that I understand half of it, mind’.

    And that was what struck me as interesting. She clearly did understand. She was engrossed before we all had to faff around and she was interrupted. But she felt the need to minimise or dismiss her own cleverness, and two men looked at her with one of those assessing looks (felt like ‘hot and clever but not too clever or threatening- want’).

    It was fascinating. And I was left wondering whether men do that self deprecating thing (I don’t remember often seeing it) and whether, if she’d been older/less stereotypically feminine and attractive she’d have done it either. Maybe if you are freed from the chains of conventional sexual attractiveness a bit you are freed to not give a fuck.

    Anyway. Fascinating to watch
     
    polly, Poot, Flipstick and 5 others like this.
  3. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    IME in some areas it has gone entirely. I don’t encounter anything that blatant in my working life any more. It’s just ceased to exist. But all the insidious attitudes that underlay it- well, they are still there
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  4. 8ball

    8ball Resident Right-Winger

    If this is a reference to overspending on my post account, I did want to respond to those who had posted in response to me earlier (although the ratios went a bit awry), but I appreciate there would have been quite a few without that, so I’ll leave the thread alone from here and let the numbers correct themselves naturally. :)

    <reports own post and retires to Banville>
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  5. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    From people I know who work in the construction industry they paid themselves for the City and Guilds in plumbing and electrical work. Not the companies they work for. Its not cheap.

    The construction industry now works using so called "self employment" and subcontracting. One might work for a company but they treat you as "self employed". So they have no obligations to you regarding anything from maternity leave , sick pay, holiday pay.

    I tried to look up British Gas. Looks like they get help from the European Social fund.

    Employers aren't into training people properly with their own money.

    Construction industry have also used EU as source of trained labour. Reducing cost to them of training. My electrician friend works mainly with Romanians.

    Business in this country has had it easy since Thatcher's time.

    What this country has is cheap flexible labour force. And low productivity. Suits Capital.

    it historically was so called loony left Councils like in Lambeth who really tried to encourage and support women to get proper training in construction trades. My point is that these things are forgotten and should be brought back.

    Imo it needs left government in power now who would do the same.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
    campanula and Pickman's model like this.
  6. Santino

    Santino lovelier than lovely

    I think that to a degree both men and women (not all men, not all women) play down their interest in 'difficult' or obscure subjects, but I'm sure that there's a different dimension to that down-playing for women.
     
  7. Rutita1

    Rutita1 Sassy McFlashy

    Worth saying to whom Manter ? Me or some of the men reading this thread?

    Honestly, the hyper-masculine stuff is the easy shit to deal with, like an out and out racist...you know our starting point...it's out there and can be owned, challenged or avoided...the needling 'cheer up love' because you dare to point out that they are flooding the thread with 'hmmm, what about this I don't actually care about' rubbish...'oh, I will think about that, 'I'm learning' whilst mansplaining the irrelevant as standard...no, that is the boring stuff and no matter how much we say, could you just think about, or hmm maybe if you could just read and learn/stop posting and think etc. Nope, the response is there must be something wrong with you/me as a woman, 'cheer up love'... 'you on the blob' ...'I'll go now before you run to mother/have me banned etc'
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
    friendofdorothy likes this.
  8. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    To the male contributors. I don’t want men to stop posting and thinking, I want them to stop playing games and/or taking over
     
  9. friendofdorothy

    friendofdorothy it is so much worse than Thatcherism now

    I'd like to see at least 51% of posts from women.
     
    RubyToogood and weepiper like this.
  10. S☼I

    S☼I bullshit bullshit my line

    :D

    It won't change the structure of the boards, you know

    ;)
     
  11. Rutita1

    Rutita1 Sassy McFlashy

  12. mango5

    mango5 Endeavour era

    We know, @S_I. Thanks for rubbing it in.

    51% on this thread was never an aim, I read it as a wistful suggestion to discover an open conversational space where women dominate on the subjects that affect us more than we realise.

    Just as the frequently repeated plea/request to men to pipe down is yet another victory for hope over experience :(

    /humourless harridan
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  13. mango5

    mango5 Endeavour era

    Not sure what to think about this. Everyone loses out from the fear and loathing of female bodies as well as the normalisation of bloody slaughter. :(
     
  14. mango5

    mango5 Endeavour era

    I am still grumpy and impatient, an internet age (one whole month) later.
    I found these recordings today, not sure when I'm going to have the patience to watch/listen tho. tbh I prefer conversation on threads than passive listening to folk on a stage, but they have doubtless thought about these things more than me and might be worth checking out.
    Audioboom / The Feminist Internet Podcast: Recoding Anger

     
  15. eoin_k

    eoin_k Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music

    Would it be opening a can of worms best left closed to respond to this in a way intended as constructive?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  16. cyril_smear

    cyril_smear Well-Known Member

    Would I be opening a can of worms to say women are ultimately oppressed by biology?
     
  17. eoin_k

    eoin_k Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music

    Can I just say... I'm not actually with him. (Just posting that makes me feel like a teenager disowning a laddish mate on a night out, but it happens to be the truth.)
     
    friendofdorothy likes this.
  18. Poot

    Poot Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk

    No because it's not true. But do go on.
     
  19. TopCat

    TopCat It's hard now...do it faster

    It would have been clearer and saved argument if these wishes had been made at the beginning of the three threads. Urban has often been the home of brutal debate but that doesn't mean things can't or shouldn't change.

    I can see the value of conscious raising threads. An environment where natal women and girls can discuss whatever they want without having to endure P&P style interventions. Have threads like this. Make it clear that's it's debate but more than that. A place where women and girls expect to dominate.

    Where a few digs can be made without blokes getting too offended. Where there is less male disruption. Urban has always been a free for all but perhaps needs to change.

    I won't stay clear of such threads. But I won't argue. My daughter was reading here and was shocked at how I came across. I don't like that. I explained some of the beef because it's 20 years since I joined Urban and 18 years since a poster in these threads belittled my opening up of being raped and made it very clear that they cared nothing for men or their struggles. No solidarity.

    This made a lasting impression. I don't want to fall out more with anyone here. So whatever I will stay clear of posting in CR threads but my will read and think etc.
     
  20. purenarcotic

    purenarcotic Conveniently Pocket Sized

    I’m very sorry that that happened to you, TC, nobody should feel belittled by sharing an experience of rape. I hope that Urban has moved on a bit since then, it certainly feels it has in the short time I’ve been posting here.
     
    polly, RubyToogood, TopCat and 3 others like this.
  21. Johnny Vodka

    Johnny Vodka The Abominable Scotsman

  22. eoin_k

    eoin_k Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music

    I'd always thought the use of male human subjects was to do with research ethics. Young, healthy women who would make appropriate trial subjects tend to be fertile. Not to deny women bodily autonomy, but this throws up questions about the unintended consequences of giving the pharmaceutical industry more access to women's bodies and the downsides to becoming potential guinea pigs. (There's something here about a world designed for men not being only about male privilege, but also about how men and women have experienced exploitation differently through the sexual division of labour.)* Admittedly, the mice case shows that there's more going on here, but are there suggestions of how to overcome this with human subjects? Given the sharp practices involved in trials conducted in places like Africa, this gets bound up with all those other issues of wealth and power. That's not to say that women shouldn't demand better healthcare, or that the gendered aspects of technology don't need to be looked at critically... just trying to think through some of the issues this brings up.

    * With women generally getting the low paid, or unpaid, low status, low 'skill' share of labour, as we should all recognise, so hopefully this is not taken as anti-feminist mansplaining.
     
  23. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    Women’s involvement in clinical trials: historical perspective and future implications
     
    friendofdorothy, Rutita1 and eoin_k like this.
  24. eoin_k

    eoin_k Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music

    spanglechick likes this.
  25. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    Yup
     
    Rutita1 likes this.
  26. eoin_k

    eoin_k Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music

    It's a line of argument that gets deployed to rationalise the status quo though, right? If not formally in a hand-wringing way as part of wider public discourse. I'm not just making this shit up?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  27. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    Yes absolutely. It’s ‘think of the children’ taken to its ultimate, really. How can you argue when there are babies involved?!

    Except that research involves a huge number of things, many of which would have no impact on a foetus, and there are all sorts of techniques now that mean even invasive tests can be modelled for women
     
    Celyn and friendofdorothy like this.
  28. Poot

    Poot Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk

    friendofdorothy and Celyn like this.
  29. Lupa

    Lupa Well-Known Member


    No. Men do not self deprecate. Ever.
    And it's sad to read that story :(
     
    friendofdorothy likes this.
  30. S☼I

    S☼I bullshit bullshit my line

    Are you serious?
     

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