Feb 15th 2003: Your memories and thoughts

[audiotech]

How many of those millions did any more political activity later?

I don't believe it had anything to do with Blair's resignation.

(I do think think the march was worthwhile but I don't think it achieved much more than a simple demonstration of opposition)

I've no idea of any numbers to do with people carrying on and doing more political activity later, but I suspect it was more after the march than before - I would agree not tens of thousands, but nevertheless must be in the thousands shurely? The left who have organised this are pretty small in number themselves, but it continues.

Blair and New Labour, along with anti-war MP's saw the numbers. It's difficult to imagine that it didn't have an affect on those that saw the huge turn-out on that very cold day.

I tend to agree with Tony Benn’s comments:

The Stop the War movement is the most powerful and influential popular political movement of my lifetime and possibly of any period of our history.

 

[chilango]

I've no idea of any numbers to do with people carrying on and doing more political activity later, but I suspect it was more after the march than before - I would agree not tens of thousands, but nevertheless must be in the thousands shurely? The left who have organised this are pretty small in number themselves, but it continues.

Blair and New Labour, along with anti-war MP's saw the numbers. It's difficult to imagine that it didn't have an affect on those that saw the huge turn-out on that very cold day.

I tend to agree with Tony Benn’s comments:

Well, Mr Benn is talking nonsense.

Sure the sight of two million on the streets protesting will have been a frightening surprise.

However, what about the reassurance gained from seeing even the biggest demo in recent history dissappear like dust in the wind.



If, thousands did become politically active after this, their natuarl home would be mostly Respect, no?

 

[8ball]

Somebody said the other day (I can't remember if it was on here) that those marches may not have stopped this particular war but they may be a factor in stopping the next one.

 

[chilango]

Somebody said the other day (I can't remember if it was on here) that those marches may not have stopped this particular war but they may be a factor in stopping the next one.

I hope so.

I hope that knowing that they would face huge opposition would stop them.

However, I also worry that conversely knowing that even if millions take to the streets they can still wage war may just spur them on.

 

[audiotech]

How politicised were they?

How politicised are they now?

There is no anti-war movement of note anymore.

It's not two million I'll grant you.

Politicised? I know a few people who had dropped out of political activity and because of the anti-war movement did get involved again, are still involved. Others, no doubt who came into politics for the first time will have continued their activity too, some will have dropped out.

I know people haven't joined political parties en-masse, or stormed winter palaces, but nevertheless, they did proclaim their opposition to the war in demonstrable terms. That continues.

 

[free spirit]

as to the march, my main memory is severe pain as I'd stupidly brought a record bag with me on the coach coz I was playing at the unsound party afterwards, checked on the map and seen it was only a couple of miles route, thought sod it I'll take the bag with me... didn't anticipate it taking 6 hours, and dancing to the samba band while trying to find a way through police lines towards the american embassy afterwards was fucking knackering.

My main thoughts though were the utter lack of any planning for what to do after the march. We had a month or so between that march and the start of the war, had they used that march to give out leaflets to al 2 million or so people outlining stuff they could do in the next few weeks to actually stop the war before it started, who knows what could have been achieved.

This of course would have meant going for decentralised actions all over the country run by local affinity groups, or even just individuals going off and doing stuff, with no central control at all, so it's no wonder the SWP led stwc didn't go for that idea. Instead their method of stopping the war was to send eveyone home with the message to go out and protest on the day the way starts... fucking great plan.

I think the NVDA movement let ourselves down badly on this, as we essentially left the swp to take over the stwc, and accepted it when the stwc didn't go for direct action (apart from a few token actions). What we should have done was to have left STWC to it, supported the main marches, but prepared seperately for a full on campaign after the march on the 15th, and used that march to recruit as many people as possible to take action after the 15th.

We could have brought the country to a standstill following the 15th had we got it together to plan something in time to publicise it for the 15th, instead we mostly went home and waited for the war to start.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Had Labour pulled back from the brink as a result of the protests thousands of people would have been politicised, "activated" and as a result more likely to engage in politics because it would have shown that a mass movement can make a difference.

The fact that Blair and co ignored all of the protestors I think made thousands upon thousands of people wonder what the point of all of it was, and that if they won't listen to 2 million people hitting the streets, why should they listen to anyone else?

Those MPs who voted in favour of the war on the grounds of weapons of mass destruction should hang their heads in shame and apologise. Those who voted for it and then say "well we got rid of an evil dictator" should hang their heads in shame for not being honest with the electorate the first time around and saying "we are going to war to get rid of an evil dictator."

 

[Blagsta]

Best bit was the Unsound party afterwards.

 

[Rollem]

Best bit was the Unsound party afterwards.

that, and the free sandwiches some old dear gave me oh and seeing someone actually slip on a banana skin

other than that, it got some people who usually only talk about stuff, out there msrching for stuff instead, and realising it still makes no difference. so maybe they'll start bashing up stuff next time, and then have to think of something else when that doesn't make any difference either....

 

[Blagsta]

A general strike would have made a difference, but that would have required strong trade unions.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Attending this protest (at the tender age of 17) was a big influence on me. Initially there was a rather stirring feeling of 'wow, there's millions of people in one place all pissed off about one thing'. This was soon replaced by the realisation that if the better part of two million people at a single protest doesn't change the government's mind, they obviously don't give a fuck about the views of the people they are supposed to serve. Now I knew this already (I have eyes) but it was probably this protest and it's utter failure to achieve anything that showed me once and for all that we actually don't live in a democracy at all, and that what the state wants the state will get regardless of who anybody votes for or how many letters are sent to how many MPs. This has changed my understanding of politics in general, and set me on the path to believing that it is better to be part of a small group of people doing some small positive things against the tide of a fucked-up society than being part of a bloody great swarm of people marching about shouting and expecting someone else to change things on their behalf.

This protest also taught me that the SWP are an intolerable shower of tossers who will try to exploit any issue going to sell their fucking silly paper and get people to join their fucking silly little club

It's also worth noting that I only went on the bloody protest because I thought it would help me get into the underpants of a rather lovely hippy girl I had my eye on at the time; on which point I am glad to report that the event was a resounding success

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

A general strike would have made a difference, but that would have required strong trade unions.

Trade unions who arent so controlled by snivelling Labour toadies more like.

I often wonder what would have happened if the Conservatives had tried to take us to the same war on the same pretext. I expect the Labour Party would have fought it tooth and nail. With them fully on board we could well have stopped the UKs part in the war or brought down the government.

A general strike would have been more likely too.


The ultimate betrayal - truly ironic and truly disgusting.

 

[scifisam]

I think it removed the scales from a lot of peoples eyes in hindsight...

it also meant that the death knell sounded for the current system of party politics and that it won't make it out of this centry alive...

which will be a good thing...

I think you're definitely right on the first count, and would like to think you're right on the second count, depending on what comes next.

I didn't march because I had a four-year-old and wasn't sure if she'd be safe; wish I had taken her now, but at the time I was too uncertain. Lots of my friends did march, though - huge numbers of them, some who were always going to be politically involved, some who were wavering, some who weren't poltical at all but went along because their friends did.

The latter group seem to have remained more politicised since then. They probably won't show up in the statistics, but they do show up in real conversations.

OTOH, the march also reminds me of Invocal's song that I think is called 'Humbugged,' (I never remember song titles). So many people were disillusioned, because, no matter what else you might say, this was an enormous march - biggest ever, IIRC? - yet nothing changed. That certainly did encourage some to opt out of party politics, so maybe you're right, Garf.

 

[free spirit]

Best bit was the Unsound party afterwards.

yeah that was cool, almost worth the 8 hours lugging my records round london. Ended up on a proper party mission that night, going from unsound to some huge multirig warehouse job in north west london (that I navigated to with no map as if by magic), then back to another party that I discovered later in the day was actually about a 2 minute walk from the unsound party, followed by a party on the train back up north (we got stuck for about 5 hours due to work on the line so took over the smoking carriage went down the train inviting anyone who looked like a party head to join us, drank the bar dry, racked up lines on the table and danced round the carriage). Not bad considering I'd literally stepped off the decks at 5am saturday morning to jump onto the coach down there.

erm yeah, don't think I really held out much hope for the success of the march from the start thinking about it, but at least I was there dammit

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My memory of watching that was me wondering how many U75ers were in there.

 

[free spirit]

My memory of watching that was me wondering how many U75ers were in there.

shedloads - I met up with a fair few briefly at the start before accidentally losing them into the crowd... at least i think it was accidental...

 

[Blagsta]

Ended up on a proper party mission that night, going from unsound to some huge multirig warehouse job in north west london

Yeah, me too. I bumped into one of the House of God DJ's from Brum at Unsound and he persuaded me to get into someone's car to go to some massive party in a warehouse near Tottenham Hale. It was crap, I wished I'd stayed at Unsound.

 

[poster342002]

It brought millions of people into political activity and led to the demise of the warmonger Blair.

What, you mean re-elected as PM and then ending up in line for the EU Presidency? That's the oddest demise I've ever heard of.

 

[poster342002]

A general strike would have made a difference, but that would have required strong trade unions.

It would also have required people who were prepared to actually strike instead of just prance into work as usual and "leave it to the reps". A ridiculous number of people where I worked were supportive of the war anyway - buying into all the simplistic "yes, but Saddam's a nasty man" crap - and wouldn't even heed a strike in support of their own pay and conditions, let alone anything "ooohh - political" like that.

 

[dennisr]

blah, blah, blah

it's given you something to be demoralised about for 5 years - and you can probably moan on about or the next 50 years as well. Every cloud has a silver lining?

I've asked this many times before - if its all so hopeless why bother commenting on it? why waste your oh-so-valuable breath, emo?

This crud about DA from some other posters... if it was 'so successful' and 'proven to be the only alternative to A to B marches' - can someone point me to it's success?

Sounds like the desperate hope that verbally repeating a failed tactic enough times will make it a 'success' - much the point its supporters would critisise what they would see as the 'other side' for - repeating some minor tactical point like a mantra, like its some genuine insight into a genuine way forward in the hope it will genuinely come true. Makes you look as feckin hopeless as the very thing you critisise.

 

[poster342002]

I've asked this many times before - if its all so hopeless why bother commenting on it? why waste your oh-so-valuable breath, emo?

I wonder that myself sometimes. It's a bit like the intro-song to The Muppet Show where Satler & Waldorf would sing:

"why do we always come here? I Guess we'll never know. It's like a kind of torture to have to watch the show!"

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It would also have required people who were prepared to actually strike instead of just prance into work as usual and "leave it to the reps". A ridiculous number of people where I worked were supportive of the war anyway - buying into all the simplistic "yes, but Saddam's a nasty man" crap - and wouldn't even heed a strike in support of their own pay and conditions, let alone anything "ooohh - political" like that.

hate to agree with to of your posts in a row...

however, I think that people are looking back with rose tinted specs on the whole thing in general people in the country were for the war. I lost count of the number of conversations i had in real life or on here where numerious people attempted to conflagrate being anti war with being pro saddam, in support of gassing kurds (note that when saddam gassed kurds it's a war crime when turkey bombs seven shades of shit out of them daily since the start of the Opperation Iraqi freedom no one bat's an eye lid).

The general public bought into the whole affair some both here and IRL also thought Saddam was behind 24/7/11 or whatever the date was I forget...

they thought that projections of the war escalteing and spreading both in terms of scope and also in terms of creating division and fragmentation leading to further extremist actions that this would be nonsense, the people saying it hysterical. Indeed the general perception of this was true until the 7/7 bombings in London.

Then the tide changed and the general public swung away from war mongering and Jean Claude was the Death Knell for any ideas of respectiblity this current administration ever had about their war on terror. (it still tickles me that there can be a war on terror, as though it's possible to fight and abstract. Next week the usa annouce a war on pointilism followed by a police action on cubism...)

 

[poster342002]

Now that's more the sort of post I like form you, garfield. Agree with much of it, btw.

 

[dennisr]

I wonder that myself sometimes. It's a bit like the intro-song to The Muppet Show where Satler & Waldorf would sing:

"why do we always come here? I Guess we'll never know. It's like a kind of torture to have to watch the show!"

fair enough - it just becomes a bit tortuous for other folk as ell after a while - hence my piss taking

my 'memories' of the march - asked to steward at the front. A small group of us managed to stop a bunch of reactionary tossers taking over the head of the march which was not as simple as it sounded givne the image of a load of mainly white short haired fellas squaring up aggressively (necessary given we were out-numbered) to a load of 'iraqi looking' types. (while the 'chief' stewards - swappies I assume - disappeared from view)

it was just another march for me - no illusions it could change anything but was still good to see the scale of opposition even without decent leadership. One sign of that was the sea of homemade banners etc - the official leftie party banners got lost in he crowd. A glimpse of what is possible if folk tooks a few further steps (and stopped hoping politicians would listen to reason rather than force). Another thing was the mixing up of people - loads of muslims and other asians not marching as blocs but mixed in with crowds of people. yes, there were lots of slightly smug do-gooders - but plenty of ordinary folk who did not know what else to do and wanted to make a visible point - including many from this bulletin board and plenty of cynical wannabe 'anarchos'. So people were not confident that taking up arms was the answer to their problems at this moment in time - so what? is that some major insight? it represented a sea-change in how the 'government', 'the law', the 'neutral state' and 'how one achieve's one's demands' is viewed. People have to go through their own process of scales falling from eyes - I can't flog them a paper to achieve that - sorry if this is letting the 'hardliners' down.

 

[chilango]

it was just another march for me - no illusions it could change anything but was still good to see the scale of opposition even without decent leadership. One sign of that was the sea of homemade banners etc - the official leftie party banners got lost in he crowd. A glimpse of what is possible if folk tooks a few further steps (and stopped hoping politicians would listen to reason rather than force). Another thing was the mixing up of people - loads of muslims and other asians not marching as blocs but mixed in with crowds of people. yes, there were lots of slightly smug do-gooders - but plenty of ordinary folk who did not know what else to do and wanted to make a visible point - including many from this bulletin board and plenty of cynical wannabe 'anarchos'. So people were not confident that taking up arms was the answer to their problems at this moment in time - so what? is that some major insight? it represented a sea-change in how the 'government', 'the law', the 'neutral state' and 'how one achieve's one's demands' is viewed. People have to go through their own process of scales falling from eyes - I can't flog them a paper to achieve that - sorry if this is letting the 'hardliners' down.

good post

 

[audiotech]

What, you mean re-elected as PM and then ending up in line for the EU Presidency? That's the oddest demise I've ever heard of.

Blair was re-elected with a reduced majority, but he never served a full term. Ever wondered why?

EU Presidency? The smart money in Brussels is on Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker.

But your not that smart are you?

 

[poster342002]

Blair was re-elected with a reduced majority, but he never served a full term. Ever wondered why?

EU Presidency? The smart money in Brussels is on Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker.

But your not that smart are you?

Ever wondered if this relentless attempt to put an absurdly optimistic spin on losses and defeats ("polishing a turd") is what turns people off your politics and party?

 

[audiotech]

Ever wondered if this relentless attempt to put an absurdly optimistic spin on losses and defeats ("polishing a turd") is what turns people off your politics and party?

On losses and defeats? What are you on about?

I think Blair has paid a price for his Iraq adventure and the anti-war movement deserves credit for their contribution to his demise. You appear to take an opposite view. What that is nobody knows?

I'm not a member of any political party btw.

 

[TAE]

it achieved the sum total of bugger all

It achieved a lot more than 'bugger all'.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It achieved a lot more than 'bugger all'.

Oh, You took my words totally out of context. Have you ever thought of working for the government?