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Fear of 'Green' Legislation

Giles said:
Why not let people decide for themselves by their spending decisions how much energy they want to use/save?

Why take the decision away from them by imposing new laws etc?

Giles..

How do peple make those decisions, when the costs of various activities aren't proportional to the damage they do. Moreover, on an issue such as this. How can you expect to have a coordinated policy in dealing with climate change, if you don't have any mechanisms for effecting anything. You can't just leave the markets to sort this one out.

So in light of what BG points out above. I'll agree taxing on it's own is a half arsed way of achieving anything. It will drawer governments precisely the sort of critisism an dsuspicion seen here. It doesn't mean it's not a necesary part of policy though.

Recall hearing something yestreday on R4 in relation to the climate change bill. MPs are aware they'll have to be seen to invest the extra tax raised in rellavent areas. Whether that happens though is a big enough debate on it's own.
 
xenon-2,

Do you really think for an instant that this time the politicians and establishment will act benevolently and not simply piss the money up the wall? You've got to admit the track record isn't exactly inspiring, is it?
 
poster342002 said:
xenon-2,

Do you really think for an instant that this time the politicians and establishment will act benevolently and not simply piss the money up the wall? You've got to admit the track record isn't exactly inspiring, is it?

I'm certainly skeptical about how the money will be used and indeed, how the cutting of CO2 targets will be met. What I think is quite worrying though, is how this abbundant sinisism for politicians, seems in some peple, to inform their skeptisism about climate change.

It's possible to believe, taxes have a part to play in addressing environmental issues. Whilst also retaining a healthy critical view of how the govt goes about raising them and what the money's spent on. i.e. like most posters here, who are concerned about this issue.
 
xenon_2 said:
I'm certainly skeptical about how the money will be used and indeed, how the cutting of CO2 targets will be met. What I think is quite worrying though, is how this abbundant sinisism for politicians, seems in some peple, to inform their skeptisism about climate change.

It's possible to believe, taxes have a part to play in addressing environmental issues. Whilst also retaining a healthy critical view of how the govt goes about raising them and what the money's spent on. i.e. like most posters here, who are concerned about this issue.

Well, you know, who's fault is it that "some people" have abundant cynicism for politicians? Hmmmmm....

When the last 10 years have been spent by a bunch of politicians who got in on a promise of being "whiter than white", being honest, the party of the people, etc etc, who almost as soon as they got in, have proceeded to lie, cheat, spin, bullshit, treat the public as though they were all retards who couldn't see through them, get the country involved in two wars, even the good shit they have done - they have "announced" five times over, can you blame "some people"?

Really?

Especially when it is becoming increasingly obvious that a lot of their success has been based on unsustainable spending, and now that the money is running out, they are desperately looking for new excuses for raising more tax.

Giles..

edited for tpyo
 
Giles said:
This is where you are wrong - the rich won't really mind too much when they impose new taxes on fuel / travel / etc, will they?
Globally rich. You and me, and everyone we know.
Giles said:
"they" have decided that they own the environment and are now going to charge us all for its "use".
I believe that happened when property was invented.
 
Well, please forgive me if I doubt that the next lot won't also see their primary function as converting our taxes into corporate welfare rather than doing anything of genuine benefit to the British people with them.
 
You can absolutely predict that anything appearing as a potential problem will lead to the elite (a) not giving a shit about solving it - after all, they'll be insulated as long as they maintain their position, and (b) using it as an opportunity to enact repressive legislation and/or funnel money to their cronies.

That's what they do.

It doesn't mean the original issue was made up, just that some cunts are taking advantage of it.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
You can absolutely predict that anything appearing as a potential problem will lead to the elite (a) not giving a shit about solving it - after all, they'll be insulated as long as they maintain their position, and (b) using it as an opportunity to enact repressive legislation and/or funnel money to their cronies.

That's what they do.

It doesn't mean the original issue was made up, just that some cunts are taking advantage of it.
Quite.
 
Having said that, the Stern Report does identify some exciting new potential revenue streams related to climate change for the City of London.
 
This whole thing is not really helped by hysterical media reporting though. Witness the disgraceful BBC report today on the draft climate bill. They took the 60% emission reduction by 2050 and then applied a 60% reduction to an "average household" to give people a vision of overnight losing their car, their lightbulbs, foreign holidays, all their electrical appliances (including the kettle!) and all their domestic heating - so, a future of shivering in the dark:(

The message presented is of course that this reduction is impossible to achieve, so why not just give up? Defeatism, cynicism and sensationalism all in one package.

They did in a separate report mention that much of the reductions would have to come through changes in industry and energy production - but this was not related to the dark hair-shirt item. They have repeated through the day "We allhave to cut our emissions by 60%" What, individually? All at once? Soon? Apart from low energy lightbulbs little mention was made of the role new technologies have to play.

Pricing mechanisms and punitive taxation that affects the poor most are not ways that are going to be acceptable or effective in reducing emissions. Mind you, the fair solutions - carbon rationing and quotas, for example, are also guaranteed to send the DM brigades into paroxysms about nanny state, civil liberties, anti-competetiveness etc ....

If you accept AGW exists, then you have to have a strategy to combat it. Just rejecting everything anyone suggests is not an option. What is really needed is a strategy that gets people working together on the common cause and is fair and just. But we can't 'wait for the revolution' to attack this problem, just as we can't 'wait for the revolution' to deal with AIDS, or homelessness or the slow destruction of the NHS. We have to use the tools we have and address the issue in the best way we can in an imperfect world. If we can grow some elements of a new society along the way or prepare for political change, then great.

If the BBC wanted to really scare the public, rather than just play at "look at the terrible life the government have planned for you and aren't they unrealistic" type politics, they would more frequently broadcast the predictions of Stern and the IPCC (who are coming from the bottom end of very conservative predicting on this topic) about what we are likely to face.

We can look at this in terms of how it relates to the world of Urban politics board posters -the situation that is emerging will alter everything you know or think you have a political handle on. What price the tedious interminable debates on immigration if it comes about that there are 10, 20, 30 million plus environmental refugees heading for these shores? What will all these debates over the uselessness of the left look like when the global economy really hits the rocks and the fascists start to gain an even larger audience, and what price our civil liberties when the frightened and threatened demand protection against a world in chaos......

Sorry if this depresses you, but people need to wake up to the scale of what is facing us. I used to see this as just another issue, I was even prone to scepticism, but once you actually look at the science and what the majority of scientists are saying it is clear that this is something of an entirely different order:(
 
Yes, I just watched that, it was utterly daft. "Oh, my family went on a CO2 reducing drive and we only managed to drop it by 20%! So 60% is just stupid!" Yeah, because, you know, the country is like a big household, isn't it? Hey, it's only fair that if Tesco cuts its emissions by 60%, I do!

The whole thing seemed to be framed so that Paxman could then have a go and say "well this is stupid isn't it? we'll never meet that, you're an idiot", instead of actually challenging real points.
 
Giles said:
Well, you know, who's fault is it that "some people" have abundant cynicism for politicians? Hmmmmm....

When the last 10 years have been spent by a bunch of politicians who got in on a promise of being "whiter than white", being honest, the party of the people, etc etc, who almost as soon as they got in, have proceeded to lie, cheat, spin, bullshit, treat the public as though they were all retards who couldn't see through them, get the country involved in two wars, even the good shit they have done - they have "announced" five times over, can you blame "some people"?

Really?

Especially when it is becoming increasingly obvious that a lot of their success has been based on unsustainable spending, and now that the money is running out, they are desperately looking for new excuses for raising more tax.

Giles..

Yes but my point is conflating that sort of justified sinisism, with suspicion about any measures brought in to mittigate effects of climate change, just looks like ignoring the problem. Governments in developed countries don't have very many tools to effect changes in behaviour. The tax system crude as it is, is one put to use for that purpose. While this issue might be hijacked for political gain, it's not a political at heart. It's perhaps more akin to preparing for a massive war.
 
Am i right in saying that marine transportation, eg bulk shipping is more delitorious to the environment than airtravel/.

Btw, agree with KS, if the Uk started to see C/C as the real threat it is, then defence of the planet could become as important as defence of the realm/military spending.
 
Treelover. I don't think you can reduce things to saying sea travel of goods is better or worse than air frate. It depends on the goods, amount distnaces travelled, modes of production. There's an argument that for UK needs at present. Importing produce from Spain for example, is less costly in CO2 emitting terms, than providing the same items but sourcing them within the UK. As in, transporting massive quantities of tomatoes from abrord, is more efficient in energy terms than having them sourced locally and needing hundreds of trucks delivering to small outlets.

The supermarkets for all the negative publicity they might have, will actually be an important facit in reducing energy requirements. A diffferent country with a less dense population, might find their agricultural sector, is more able to do with out importing so much.

It's a bloody confusing issue anyway.
:D
 
financial consideration sadly is the way to get people to do things .i changed my bulbs to energy saving ones because an 100 watt bulb can be replaced with one that only uses 20 watt and lasts longer.money is the root to all evil but sadly we cant do without it:confused:
 
Giles said:
I say let people judge the evidence and decide for themselves what they want to do.

Except... grr...

This "choice", what is it?

I choose to live in a warm secure house on a car-free urban street, with vegetables and windmills on the roof, friends around me, enriching neither landlords nor financial institutions...

Where can I get one of them, then?

All people have readily available to make are capitalist "choices". You know, half an aisle of slightly different breakfast cereals, half an aisle of differently-packaged bogrolls...
 
laptop said:
Except... grr...

This "choice", what is it?

I choose to live in a warm secure house on a car-free urban street, with vegetables and windmills on the roof, friends around me, enriching neither landlords nor financial institutions...

Where can I get one of them, then?

All people have readily available to make are capitalist "choices". You know, half an aisle of slightly different breakfast cereals, half an aisle of differently-packaged bogrolls...

Quite. Market forces and the distorted feeling of freedom of choice they bring are a bit rubbish at tackling something this important.
 
xenon_2 said:
Treelover. I don't think you can reduce things to saying sea travel of goods is better or worse than air frate. It depends on the goods, amount distnaces travelled, modes of production. There's an argument that for UK needs at present. Importing produce from Spain for example, is less costly in CO2 emitting terms, than providing the same items but sourcing them within the UK. As in, transporting massive quantities of tomatoes from abrord, is more efficient in energy terms than having them sourced locally and needing hundreds of trucks delivering to small outlets.

The supermarkets for all the negative publicity they might have, will actually be an important facit in reducing energy requirements. A diffferent country with a less dense population, might find their agricultural sector, is more able to do with out importing so much.

It's a bloody confusing issue anyway.
:D

Another thing to take into account before criticising "food miles" for some items is temperature in the two countries concerned - if tomatoes, oranges etc can be grown in the open air in a hotter country, maybe this consumes less energy than growing the same things in the UK in heated greenhouses.

Hmmmm, but then again, maybe global warming will mean that Britain CAN grow our own tomatoes, oranges, bananas etc!

And if it gets that warm, maybe people won't want to fly off to the hot sun so much: Hunstanton could be the new Ibiza. Or something.

Giles..
 
shagnasty said:
financial consideration sadly is the way to get people to do things .
Yes, but why is that perticular stick ALWAYS weilded more heavily, more vigorously and more enthusiastically at the poor rather than at the rich? No relativist bollox along the lines of "we're all rich in Britain compared to the 3rd world" in reply, please.
 
poster342002 said:
Yes, but why is that perticular stick ALWAYS weilded more heavily, more vigorously and more enthusiastically at the poor rather than at the rich? No relativist bollox along the lines of "we're all rich in Britain compared to the 3rd world" in reply, please.
Because it's the rich wielding the stick?
 
kyser_soze said:
Can I just ask exactly what 'personal freedoms' the OP is referring to? Would that be the 'personal freedom' to fly or drive a car, neither of which would be possible without fossil fuel and technology and neither of which under ANY circumstance could be desribed as a 'right' or 'personal freedom'...
sorry but nor is usign the internet which if you looka tht epc you use is both facuiltieated and prodcued from fossil fuels.. and you and i aneveryone else here suanders billions in wasted energy each day using it...

you want to sort out global warming really sort it out ban computors and the internet world wide... go backt o pen and paper... volia global warming solved no other changes needed...

anyone facy giving up that right... perceived or other wise??

well then fuck up you hypocrites, until you stop using the internet you have no right to insist anyone one else modify their behaviour... consumption of energy and the related heat created and carbon emmissions created from domestic and commercial internet useage, including manifacture each year far out weighs the minimal effect to enviroment that personal transport has... yet we pusure personal transport rather than places like canary warf which uses more energy each day that the entire city of birmingham running servers and pcs connecting to the internet and internal networks...

energy provision has become so bad in most areas of london it's gotten to the stage where there simply isn't enough power to put in certain types of technology into buildings the surrounding power grid cannot take it and that electricity production needs to come from somewhere...

don't mention server farms for web hosting or of course caching servers for search engines not to mention the enromous chaching services between the uk europe and the states down in dover don't even begin to ask the levels of power they are using...

so really save the enviroment tomorrow get of the internet today...
 
IThe Rich... the Politicians... the new world order...
... who dont want us to travel... dont get a car...
stay in you own insular communities and spend and pay tax
and more tax... dont think... love road pricing... vote nulabour/nutory

This crazy rush for Uk green legislation, where Uk only produces just
over 1% of world emmissions anyway, and we all do our bit without
the legislation. I could think of loads of ways we could cut down...

Like how much a certain illegal War has been polluting the earth.

Actually, when London & the world went up in smoke on new years eve,
UK again on nov 5th... I was thinking that we could have all saved the
planet if we'd have just stayed in the pub... London had a fireworks
gas cloud above it all day on Jan 1st...

Is the internet a environ threat though... As necessary as lighting
and heating... probably less potent than creating paper books..
They would love us not to communicate.

Is nulabour HQ logged into this forum and posting spoiler messages?

|
 
So no one as yet has given me a decent answer to my question about exactly which personal freedoms I'm expected to give up...
 
kyser_soze said:
So no one as yet has given me a decent answer to my question about exactly which personal freedoms I'm expected to give up...
Yep. It´s difficult to say why particular freedoms of action for you and me should trump particular, and more fundamental, freedoms for others.
laptop said:
All people have readily available to make are capitalist "choices"
Yep. And some people. For most, it´s a choice between luxuries like food or blowing it all on frivolities like education and basic health care.
FridgeMagnet said:
Because it's the rich wielding the stick?
Yeah, mostly this. Though the poor also outnumber the rich, quite heavily. Even if the poor wielded the stick, it would mostly be the poor on the other end.
 
GarfieldLeChat said:
well then fuck up you hypocrites, until you stop using the internet you have no right to insist anyone one else modify their behaviour...
You have a perfect right to call for a collective decision in the direction of sanity and cleverness. I like computers, the same way I like books, teachers, and sewers. They´d be amongst the last things I´d want to see go. If they stop other people eating, or having real choices, then fine. But they don´t, in themselves.
 
If we were actually trying to mitigate and prepare the ground for adapting though, rather than just raising some regressive taxes and generating new investment opportunities for the City, then the 'freedoms' that would be abridged are mostly the freedoms of e.g. Lord Sainsbury, the Duke of Westminster or various corporate parasites on the tax system as far as I can tell. The mitigation approaches that would actually be required to meet the CO2 targets implied by the IPCC reports and the most effective adaptations to the changes likely even if those targets were met, are mainly about core infrastructure, food systems, urban population density and stuff like that.
 
chooch said:
You have a perfect right to call for a collective decision in the direction of sanity and cleverness. I like computers, the same way I like books, teachers, and sewers. They´d be amongst the last things I´d want to see go. If they stop other people eating, or having real choices, then fine. But they don´t, in themselves.
yes they do ... the pollution created byt he manifcature of a chip is enromous the pollution created byt he destruction of old technology enromouuse not to mention the plasticvs used or the acid etching... etc.. totally enviromentally unfriendly and not to mention the electricity generation and useage...
 
GarfieldLeChat said:
yes they do ...
But they don´t in themselves, any more than any other use of any resource does, in itself, and with plenty of mitigation.
They´re very likely to be part of any acceptable solution, because they´re a technology that promotes creativity and ingenuity, social networking, and collective action. More so than motorbikes, for example. Or hair straighteners. Or patio heaters.
 
xenon_2 said:
Treelover. I don't think you can reduce things to saying sea travel of goods is better or worse than air frate. It depends on the goods, amount distnaces travelled, modes of production. There's an argument that for UK needs at present. Importing produce from Spain for example, is less costly in CO2 emitting terms, than providing the same items but sourcing them within the UK. As in, transporting massive quantities of tomatoes from abrord, is more efficient in energy terms than having them sourced locally and needing hundreds of trucks delivering to small outlets.

The supermarkets for all the negative publicity they might have, will actually be an important facit in reducing energy requirements. A diffferent country with a less dense population, might find their agricultural sector, is more able to do with out importing so much.

It's a bloody confusing issue anyway.
:D
That is supposed to be the advantage of a carbon tax (if it was worldwide) over appealing for people to be more environmentally friendly - business and consumer attempts to cut costs would be directed towards the most effective ways to decrease emissions.
 
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