Fate of the W/C

[poster342002]

Thing is, I think "they" will find, as the US has in Iraq, that waging a war to the death against an idea may be the biggest mistake ever made. It'll mean they've lost sight of the "bread and circuses"/"carrot and stick" idea that's been so successful for them. Make it so that people have very little to lose, and they also lose any motivation to behave "properly".

Oughtn't this to have happened by now, though? And even if it does, I doubt it'll take the form of collelctivised rebellion - more a sort of descent into dog-eat-dog, individualised self-protective chaos. Or aimless riots that leave the system and the ruling class intact.

 

[Belushi]

Oughtn't this to have happened by now, though? And even if it does, I doubt it'll take the form of collelctivised rebellion - more a sort of descent into dog-eat-dog, individualised self-protective chaos. Or aimless riots that leave the system and the ruling class intact.

Or the far right.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oughtn't this to have happened by now, though? And even if it does, I doubt it'll take the form of collelctivised rebellion - more a sort of descent into dog-eat-dog, individualised self-protective chaos. Or aimless riots that leave the system and the ruling class intact.

Impossible to know for certain, isn't it?

However, I recall what happened last time the government went a step too far, and passed a bill that meant working class hardship on a large scale. There were local campaigns, a national campaign and a fairly impressive riot, and the government backed off.
Okay, it didn't spark a revolution, but it politicised a large number of people of all ages who wouldn't otherwise have become politicised.

 

[poster342002]

Or the far right.

Yes, to a degree - although I think the "old" far right may be eclipsed by the establishment itself lurching so far to the right that even they (the "old" or "classic" Far Right) become irrelevant to the needs of the system.

As I say, the "old" far-right are no longer needed to smash the working classes as they're pretty much on the floor knocked out, anyway.

 

[poster342002]

However, I recall what happened last time the government went a step too far, and passed a bill that meant working class hardship on a large scale. There were local campaigns, a national campaign and a fairly impressive riot, and the government backed off.
Okay, it didn't spark a revolution, but it politicised a large number of people of all ages who wouldn't otherwise have become politicised.

Ironically, I think that may have been the last chance for a revolution - and a lot of the left went into doubletime to make sure it didn't happen.

 

[Belushi]

Ironically, I think that may have been the last chance for a revolution - and a lot of the left went into doubletime to make sure it didn't happen.

You mean the poll tax? I dont think most people in the country wanted a revolution - they just didnt want to pay!

 

[poster342002]

You mean the poll tax? I dont think most people in the country wanted a revolution - they just didnt want to pay!

I think it had the potential to go that far, though. I can still recall news reports of angry crowds storming town halls - and it sounded eerily like the start of the downfall of some of the eastern europoean regiems months before.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or the far right.

Who are (still) well tied-in with "the establishment" imo.
The problem there is that physical "direct action" anti-fascism appears (at least to my eyes) to be cyclical, kicking the right out of contention only seems to happen when the threat reaches a certain level, rather than providing them with a constant reason not to get out of bed.

My present worry is that with the degree of sensationalist shit in the media on issues such as "immigration" and "fundamentalist Islam", a perfect compost is being provided for a relatively unimpeded resurgence for the cunts.

 

[slaar]

I think it had the potential to go that far, though. I can still recall news reports of angry crowds storming town halls - and it sounded eerily like the start of the downfall of some of the eastern europoean regiems months before.

Possibly, although I wasn't of age at the time, but comparing the Thatcher government with the systematic state repression of some of the eastern european countries seems excessive.

 

[Belushi]

I think it had the potential to go that far, though. I can still recall news reports of angry crowds storming town halls - and it sounded eerily like the start of the downfall of some of the eastern europoean regiems months before.

I dont recall the situation as being anything like Eastern Europe tbh - I cant remember anyone (apart from the left ghetto) wanting to overthrow capitalism at the time, they just wanted a fairer tax.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ironically, I think that may have been the last chance for a revolution - and a lot of the left went into doubletime to make sure it didn't happen.

I remember.
I expected Labour to lie down with the wolves, but half (or more) of the "revolutionary" socialist groups dropped the ball (or in at least one case, IIRC, abstained from having a view entirely) too. But hey, why would they want a revolution that they couldn't act as a vanguard for, anyway?

 

[Belushi]

My present worry is that with the degree of sensationalist shit in the media on issues such as "immigration" and "fundamentalist Islam", a perfect compost is being provided for a relatively unimpeded resurgence for the cunts.

I agree, nonetheless the BNP are addressing issues which are of concern to many Brits and which the left is unwilling/unable to address.

They did very well in Sedgefield last night

 

[Das Uberdog]

I disagree with that, although there were considerable numbers forced off by enclosure, new techniques etc, people also flocked to the cities for the opportunities they would never have if they remained in their villages (my great grandad did exactly this at the start of the last century) The early industrial city was a dreadful place but so was subsistence farming. You see a similar prcess at work in third world cities today.

The point is that making a living out of the countryside actively became harder. They were still forced off - because life in the countryside became so hard. First, because of the development of large-scale farms which could produce more efficiently and effectively - secondly because of a subsequent change in tenancy rights (money rather than produce) - thirdly because a drought of people (who had migrated to the cities) destroyed the small-scale localised welfare system provided by small communities for people fallen hard on their luck.

You were a damn sight better as a Saxon farmer prior to Hastings than a peon under the Plantaginet line, and a damn sight better as a peon than a peasant prior to industrialisation.

 

[poster342002]

Possibly, although I wasn't of age at the time, but comparing the Thatcher government with the systematic state repression of some of the eastern european countries seems excessive.

I was more meaning the mass, angry reaction to it rather than the govt itself. I think a lot of people were entering "last straw" territory with the Thatcher govt. We'll never really know - the establishment-left went into overtime to make sure it didn't happen. As I'm sure they would if any future comparable situation or potential revolt were to come to the boil - which is, in itself, ather unlikely now.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Possibly, although I wasn't of age at the time, but comparing the Thatcher government with the systematic state repression of some of the eastern european countries seems excessive.

Viewed in its' historical context though, to relatively politically-free Brits, it would have seemed far harsher an imposition, than the routine, long-established repression suffered by eastern Europeans.
Obviously, that's relativism from a "privileged" viewpoint, but many people did react to the poll tax as something akin to arbitrary class-based repression.

 

[poster342002]

I dont recall the situation as being anything like Eastern Europe tbh - I cant remember anyone (apart from the left ghetto) wanting to overthrow capitalism at the time, they just wanted a fairer tax.

A revolution often starts with a demand for relief by people who are backed into a corner and then mushrooms. I can definately remember seeing scenes on the TV of large numbers of peopel storming town halls - and they weren't your typical lefty activists or crusties.

I've never known of anything like it in the UK before or since in my lifetime.

The reaction of the establisihment left really woke me up, though, and I'll never forget it.

 

[Belushi]

A revolution often starts with a demand for relief by people who are backed into a corner and then mushrooms. I can definately remember seeing scenes on the TV of large numbers of peopel storming town halls - and they weren't your typical lefty activists or crusties.

I've never known of anything like it in the UK before or since in my lifetime.

But more often people are happy once they've got their way especially when they have no desire to overthrow the system - dont forget the Tories would go on to win the election folowing the poll tax debacle and the left would continue its long decline.

I really dont believe there was any substantial support for a revolution in britain in 1989.

I genuinely dont remember any town halls being stormed - if it did happen I suspect there werent many.

 

[slaar]

Viewed in its' historical context though, to relatively politically-free Brits, it would have seemed far harsher an imposition, than the routine, long-established repression suffered by eastern Europeans.
Obviously, that's relativism from a "privileged" viewpoint, but many people did react to the poll tax as something akin to arbitrary class-based repression.

Sure, and as I said I wasn't there. Well, I was, but I was at primary school. But I would have thought revolution was bred from much wider and much longer-lasting repression. I don't remember a thing about it, living in rural Somerset, I'm sure it was a much bigger deal in the cities.

 

[Fruitloop]

But more often people are happy once they've got their way especially when they have no desire to overthrow the system - dont forget the Tories would go on to win the election folowing the poll tax debacle and the left would continue its long decline

Part of the blame for that has to go to the crazy electoral system you have here though, I reckon.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I agree, nonetheless the BNP are addressing issues which are of concern to many Brits and which the left is unwilling/unable to address.

They did very well in Sedgefield last night

Almost 9%, and in a constituency with (IIRC) about a 10% BME population.
What worries me is that this is happening without the input of idealogues of Mosley's stripe, but through the propagation of myths about people being deprived of their "entitlements". At least when I was getting in fights back in the Thatcher era, it was because someone was propagating an ideology of hate, now it seems as though there's little coherent to fight against.

 

[poster342002]

But more often people are happy once they've got their way especially when they have no desire to overthrow the system - dont forget the Tories would go on to win the election folowing the poll tax debacle and the left would continue its long decline.

I agree. As I say, I think that was the last chance and people blew it. The establishemnt left has a large, shameful, chunk of responsibility for this.

I really dont believe there was any substantial support for a revolution in britain in 1989.

A revolution doesn't always happen with people saying "let's have a revolution" - it can start with a spontaneous protest and become a revolution as the angry action spreads without people really conciously knowing that what is emerging is a revolution.

 

[slaar]

Possibly, but the British are a very conservative nation, we haven't had a revolution for 350 years so it would take a lot.

 

[Belushi]

A revolution doesn't always happen with people saying "let's have a revolution" - it can start with a spontaneous protest and become a revolution as the angry action spreads without people really conciously knowing that what is emerging is a revolution.

Yesw, but there has to be a great deal of underlying unhappiness with the current system for a revolution - that simply wasnt there in 1989 (or today) the percentage of the population who want to overthrow capitalism in Britain is miniscule.

 

[Belushi]

Almost 9%, and in a constituency with (IIRC) about a 10% BME population.
What worries me is that this is happening without the input of idealogues of Mosley's stripe, but through the propagation of myths about people being deprived of their "entitlements". At least when I was getting in fights back in the Thatcher era, it was because someone was propagating an ideology of hate, now it seems as though there's little coherent to fight against.

Yes, thats a good point.

 

[poster342002]

the British are a very conservative nation, we haven't had a revolution for 350 years

And I think it's worth asking "why?" about these two issues. What is it about the UK that ensures that normal laws of dialectics do not apply?

I've said before that the UK will be the last festering capitalist nation on Earth. I also suspect that were the rest of the planet to undergo revolution, the UK and US ruling classes would threaten to release the nukes unless the rest of the globe agreed to restore the capitalist yoke over themselves.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Gotta take into account how much the BNP have toned down as well, though. Publically at least.

 

[Fruitloop]

And I think it's worth asking "why?" about these two issues. What is it about the UK that ensures that normal laws of dialectics do not apply?

I've said before that the UK will be the last festering capitalist nation on Earth. I also suspect that were the rest of the planet to undergo revolution, the UK and US ruling classes would threaten to release the nukes unless the rest of the globe agreed to restore the capitalist yoke over themselves.

Depressing but probably true.

I've often wondered if the lack of revolutionary fervour here is more due to society being more advanced down a particular ideological track than to any inherent forelock-tugging tendencies in the national character.

 

[Belushi]

Gotta take into account how much the BNP have toned down as well, though. Publically at least.

Yes, unfortunately Griffins strategy is proving succesful at the moment, they're very good at pushing the 'were just anti political correctness' line.

 

[Fruitloop]

I don't think the BNP deserve credit for the rightward and confrontational shift in British politics, they are just along for the ride. They have adapted well to changed circumstances though; i.e. realising that they don't need to make the case any more as the govt and media will do it for them.

 

[poster342002]

I've often wondered if the lack of revolutionary fervour here is more due to society being more advanced down a particular ideological track than to any inherent forelock-tugging tendencies in the national character.

Perhaps a sort of self-contained, self-perpetuating momentum of one leading to the other and back again? Sort of like a societal and cultural mobius-band.