Fatah or Hamas ?

[oi2002]

So majority did not think about themselves as "Palestinians"? It looks to me that "Palestinians" were like Brummies for example. Residents of Birmingham might have their own identity but it does not make them a different nation from English.

Odd example. Nationality wise Brummies are British, that's what it says on their passports.

The difference here is the English certainly are a people with a long history of self rule I don't think this is true for the Palestinians who like the Lebanese are ethnically and religously diverse.

 

[Serguei]

I mean, you're attempting to slur Palestinians and Arafat, and yet how many Israelis who were born everywhere but Israel call themselves and other Jews from the diaspora "Israeli"?

It's most of them, isn't it?

They call themselves "Israeli" because they have an Israeli passport and live in Israel. What is wrong with it?
People living in West Bank until 1988 used to have Jordanian passport and used to live on a former territory of Jordan occupied by Israel as a result of a war (during which Jordan together with Egypt and Syria planned to destroy the state of Israel).

 

[ViolentPanda]

They call themselves "Israeli" because they have an Israeli passport and live in Israel. What is wrong with it?

Mmm, I'd agree with you IF you're only talking about those Jewish immigrants to Israel who give up their original nationalities, but how many (or rather how FEW) is that?
However, I'm fairly sure you're talking about all those people who hedge their bets by holding onto their other passports too.

People living in West Bank until 1988 used to have Jordanian passport and used to live on a former territory of Jordan occupied by Israel as a result of a war (during which Jordan together with Egypt and Syria planned to destroy the state of Israel).

Surely you're not saying that dual nationality is okay for Israelis but not for anyone else? That would be discriminatory, wouldn't it?

 

[Serguei]

Mmm, I'd agree with you IF you're only talking about those Jewish immigrants to Israel who give up their original nationalities, but how many (or rather how FEW) is that?
However, I'm fairly sure you're talking about all those people who hedge their bets by holding onto their other passports too.

And what is the reason some of them are holding to their other passports? They still have children born in Israel who have no chance to get any other passport but Israeli.

Surely you're not saying that dual nationality is okay for Israelis but not for anyone else? That would be discriminatory, wouldn't it?

Nothing wrong with dual nationality. It is just that most of the people living in West Bank used to have only Jordanian nationality before 1988 (until Jordan decided to stop calling them Jordanian citizens). If everything goes well they might have a chance to have a Palestinian (or whatever the country will be named) citizenship in the future (subject of Hamas to be pragmatic if it is possible) but that would not be a dual citizenship.

 

[nino_savatte]

And what is the reason some of them are holding to their other passports? They still have children born in Israel who have no chance to get any other passport but Israeli.



Nothing wrong with dual nationality. It is just that most of the people living in West Bank used to have only Jordanian nationality before 1988 (until Jordan decided to stop calling them Jordanian citizens). If everything goes well they might have a chance to have a Palestinian (or whatever the country will be named) citizenship in the future (subject of Hamas to be pragmatic if it is possible) but that would not be a dual citizenship.

Isn't there? It seems to me that, in the case of Israel, dual nationality is acceptable for a great many reasons...particularly if the Israelis in question are actually Americans.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Isn't there? It seems to me that, in the case of Israel, dual nationality is acceptable for a great many reasons...particularly if the Israelis in question are actually Americans.

Or, as my old boss used to call them, "fair-weather Israelis".

 

[nino_savatte]

Or, as my old boss used to call them, "fair-weather Israelis".

Exactly and as sure as eggs is eggs, when the shit hits the fan, they'll be the first to head for the door...frontiersmen included.

 

[phildwyer]

Exactly and as sure as eggs is eggs, when the shit hits the fan, they'll be the first to head for the door...frontiersmen included.

Absolute rubbish and nonsense. Americans who emigrate to Israel, and especially to the occupied territories, are the most aggressive Zionists in the world. Many of them go there actively looking for a fight, and are delighted when they find it. They are usually *far* more into fighting than the average Israeli. I know two Americans who go to Israel every year--*only* to do their army service. They speak of it as an annual adventure holiday.

 

[nino_savatte]

Absolute rubbish and nonsense. Americans who emigrate to Israel, and especially to the occupied territories, are the most aggressive Zionists in the world. Many of them go there actively looking for a fight, and are delighted when they find it. They are usually *far* more into fighting than the average Israeli. I know two Americans who go to Israel every year--*only* to do their army service. They speak of it as an annual adventure holiday.

You said it, shit for brains, you only "know two Americans who go to Israel every year", so you're talking out of your arse as usual. You've obviously never heard of Dore Gold or Binyamin Netanyahu.

Now kindly fuck off and die.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Absolute rubbish and nonsense. Americans who emigrate to Israel, and especially to the occupied territories, are the most aggressive Zionists in the world. Many of them go there actively looking for a fight, and are delighted when they find it. They are usually *far* more into fighting than the average Israeli. I know two Americans who go to Israel every year--*only* to do their army service. They speak of it as an annual adventure holiday.

Exactly how does what you claim explain those US (and European and Russian) Jewish emigrants to Israel who run "home" with their tails between their legs, if what you say is true?

The answer, of course, is that it doesn't explain anything except your experience, which you appear to have extrapolated to cover all cases. Your claim is the kind of generalisation you usual tax other people (often with remarks about "racism") for.

 

[oi2002]

...I know two Americans who go to Israel every year--*only* to do their army service. They speak of it as an annual adventure holiday.

If you're stuck with just an Israeli nationality any balloon who wants to take on the entire Umma must seem deeply foolish. If you are a fly by night Bronx neo-colonial on the other hand it could seem like fine sport.

In a similar vein I heard that the Pakistani elite have all arranged US citizenship or a Greencard so they can bolt to safety with the loot. As a result they are not too worried if their crazed state finally goes tits up and so it probably will.

 

[oi2002]

Oh dear Haaretz has a piece on a Hamas web site:

The video shows Idham Ahmed Majila and Maumin Rajab Rajab, who blew themselves up at the Karni crossing at the end of 2004. "My message to the hated Jews: There is no God but Allah," Majala says. "We will hunt you everywhere, when you wake and when you sleep. We are a blood-drinking people and we know that there is no better blood than Jewish blood.

That's in liberal hand wringing Haaretz so I assume they've fact checked it.

Not good... come back Yasser all is forgiven.

 

[moono]

Lol ! Haaretz is parroting another site, not a news source, and that other 'site' just happens to be 'Palestinian Media Watch', a cess-pit of an Islamophobic drivel-fed 'website' which was set up to discredit 'Palestine Media Watch', a respected and legitimate media link.

Palestinian Media Watch

Palestine Media Watch

Shame on Haaretz. Hamas's victory shocked even them.

 

[tangentlama]

This is what Palastine means to Hamas:Here's a very clear map just in case you think this somehow leaves wriggle room for the Zionist entity.

Ideologically, unlike the secular nationalists of Fatah, this leaves Hamas trapped by faith and duty into a long hopeless war against a patently superior opponent.

There won't be a Collins in 22 moment either accepting partition, hoping it will lead to a United Ireland. A reluctantly granted stay of execution is all Israel can expect from them, that limited to decade, see Hudna:

NO. This is what Palestine means to Palestinians:

Someone who apparently had an especially sarcastic sense of humor decided to officially name the Jordan Valley Road, Route 90, the "Gandhi Road." The reference is not to Mahatma Gandhi, but to Rehavam Ze'evi, who advocated "transfer" - the expulsion of the Palestinians from their land. Perhaps he understood that this was indeed the appropriate name for the eastern road. For not only on this road, but throughout the enormous and beautiful expanse of the Jordan Valley and the eastern slopes of the hills, there is an oppressive sense of absence, loss, and emptiness.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/682885.html

 

[nino_savatte]

Exactly how does what you claim explain those US (and European and Russian) Jewish emigrants to Israel who run "home" with their tails between their legs, if what you say is true?

The answer, of course, is that it doesn't explain anything except your experience, which you appear to have extrapolated to cover all cases. Your claim is the kind of generalisation you usual tax other people (often with remarks about "racism") for.

Did you notice how phil contradicted himself in his posts? he attacks me (purey for the sake of it) and then admits to knowing a couple of Israeli-Americans who do precisely the very things I have talked about.

 

[tangentlama]

i can't begin to tell you how many British Jewish (then youths) whom I know who went to work on Israeli Kibbutzim in the OT's throughout the late 70s, and throughout the 80s into the very early 90s (91/92).

perhaps we should organise the collation of an anthology of their stories and publish that, just so we never forget the inhumanity which was witnessed towards indigenous Arabs. perhaps Leslie Bunder would publish such a thing?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Did you notice how phil contradicted himself in his posts? he attacks me (purey for the sake of it) and then admits to knowing a couple of Israeli-Americans who do precisely the very things I have talked about.

"phildwyer" is like birdshit on a windscreen, irritating at the time, but irrelevant in the great scheme of things.

 

[oi2002]

NYRB looks on the bright side:

Because of all it did, said, and stood for, a vote for Hamas became one way to exorcise the disgrace. The Palestinian Authority had been unable to protect its people, and Hamas evidently could do no better on that score. But though its brutal attacks on Israelis did not provide safety, they provided revenge, and, for many Palestinians, in the biblical land of primal urges, that was second best. While not condoning every Hamas operation, for vast numbers of Palestinians, the Islamists' current position on Israel and the use of violence against it also rang as a truer, more authentic expression of their feelings. In this, Prime Minister Sharon displayed greater discernment than the Israeli left: deep down, most Palestinians, though ready to accept Israel's existence, have not accepted its historical legitimacy; though supportive of a mutual cease-fire and peace agreements, they will not relinquish the right to fight for their land. At the height of the peace process, when statehood seemed within reach, they were prepared to live the lie, and go along with their leaders' ambivalent concessions. But most Palestinians felt otherwise, and the dissonance between what was believed and what was stated added to the indignity of their position.
...
Even on the diplomatic front, there are interesting signals. Concerns that Hamas will hinder the "peace process" seem oddly misdirected in the absence of a process to derail in the first place. Instead, the Islamists' approach is more in tune with current Israeli thinking than the Palestinian Authority's loftier goal of a permanent peace ever was. In its preference for unilateralism and for a long-term interim deal, Israel may have found its match in Hamas's reluctance to talk to the enemy, its opposition at this stage to a permanent agreement, and its willingness to accept an extended truce. Their initial reactions suggest that Israelis may view things in this way. One might have expected Hamas's victory to give the right-wing Likud its long-awaited boost. Not so. The government displayed restraint, the centrist Kadima registered a slight uptick in the polls, and a majority of the public expressed backing for engagement with a Hamas-dominated PA. In their hearts, Israelis already have given up on the notion of a reliable Palestinian partner; they are eager to disengage from the Palestinians, and are gravitating toward unilateralism. Hamas's victory did not challenge any of these trends. It validated them.

 

[nino_savatte]

"phildwyer" is like birdshit on a windscreen, irritating at the time, but irrelevant in the great scheme of things.

Indeed...but he takes himself so seriously even though much of what he says is absolute bullshit.

 

[oi2002]

JP Hamas working on 'new charter':

Tamimi said that clauses in the 1988 charter declaring that that the land on which Israel exists is Islamic Wakf land - "consecrated for the future of Muslim generations until Judgment Day" and thus religiously forbidden to be given to a non-Muslim nation - would be either removed or, "because it does not reflect the reality accurately," diluted.

"All the land conquered by Muslims was Wakf land, but this doesn't matter. We're not struggling to get Spain back. That's just in the minds of a few idiots."

Seems they are going to remove the tin foil hatted racism as well, that will slim it down substantially.

 

[ViolentPanda]

JP Hamas working on 'new charter':Seems they are going to remove the tin foil hatted racism as well, that will slim it down substantially.

Which is "one in the eye" to the many posturing ideologues who declared that Hamas didn't know the meaning of the word "change".

Still, I'm sure those august journalists who did promulgate such a position will now revise it and happily admit that they were talking bull.

Or not.

 

[muser]

There are Palestinian Jews on both sides of the Green Line. I'm not aware of any Palestinian group calling for all Jews to be expelled from the West Bank or Gaza, let alone the land which is called Israel - only those whose presence is against International Law. Settling a civilian population in occupied territory has been classed as a war crime since WWII, for very good reasons.

It's not very helpful to talk about Hamas' denying Israel's right to exist without understanding what that means. Hamas wants, or would at least prefer, a single state solution, but that does not mean a state without Jews. It denies Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state on Palestinian land, much as the "Allies" in WWII denied Germany's right to exist as an Aryan state on European land. No state has a "right" to exist under these terms, so it's a bit meaningless to talk about Israel's right to exist without defining what you mean. Israel has a right to exist within the confines of International Law. Palestinians would be delighted if it did so.

Brilliant post, I was trying to conceptualize something to contribute to the thread, but this has done so perfectly. I will stop gushing now, thank you.