Fatah or Hamas ?

[Joe]

Do you really think that Hamas won't discard the call for the destruction of Israel the moment it becomes politically imperative or politically beneficial enough for them to do so? That's the path that many of the Arab states have trod, so I'm hopeful Hamas will go in that direction.

I hope they follow a similar path to the PLO, but since their election I've read quote after quote and I have my doubts as to whether this is a path they're willing to follow at present

 

[Sasaferrato]

Don't talk shite, it makes you look stupid, which I know damn well you're not.

Hamas have (except in terms of the suicide bombing which are a Palestinian phenomenon) done exactly the same as any movement resisting territorial occupation do.
You talk about going to war as if Hamas (a Palestinian, rather than a pan-Arabic organisation, or a Shia organisation like Hezbollah) either want to or are in a position to.

As for the crack about Allah, as if Islam is a monolithic religion rather than being just as factional as Christianity, grow up.

I think you will find that Islam is very much more monolithic than Christianity. Even between the factions they have much much more in common than even Catholics and Protestants do, never mind the fundamentalist idiots.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I've had the misfortune to read it, but I'm also realist enough to know that not all members of organisations sign up because they've read the policy documents.
Why are you mentioning "freedom fighters", btw? I was talking about a resistance movement (which implies a political and tactical engagement and is allowable under the UN charter) rather than a guerrilla force.

Do you really think that Hamas won't discard the call for the destruction of Israel the moment it becomes politically imperative or politically beneficial enough for them to do so? That's the path that many of the Arab states have trod, so I'm hopeful Hamas will go in that direction.

If Hamas declares peace, and STICKS to it, then there can be progress. So far, no Palestinian government has kept its word, as a result, Israel retaliates, and so would I in similar circumstance.

 

[moono]

Sasaferrato;

Care to explain? From your post I could easily deduce that you feel that Israel has no right of existence.

What you should have deduced is that Israel has no right to anything not legally Israel's. Did you miss that ? Ignore it ? Not consider it important ?

 

[moono]

VP, at least, has a refined humour;

Two members of the Palestinian government are sitting having a sherbet.

" Mahmoud" says Hammad, between sips, " If we don't cease resistance they are going to cut off our funds, wall us in, restrict our movements, knock down our homes, destroy our farms, poison our water, steal our land and assassinate us by aerial robot "

"What ! " exclaims Mahmoud. " Still ? "

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think you will find that Islam is very much more monolithic than Christianity. Even between the factions they have much much more in common than even Catholics and Protestants do, never mind the fundamentalist idiots.

I think I won't find that, in fact I know that the divide between Shia and Sunni is wider than Catholicism and Protestantism (much greater doctrinal and institutional disagreements, very little room for ecumenism), and that Sufism is to the rest of Islam what Buddhism is to Christianity.

As for the fundamentalists, kill 'em all, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu. They're all scum.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If Hamas declares peace, and STICKS to it, then there can be progress. So far, no Palestinian government has kept its word, as a result, Israel retaliates, and so would I in similar circumstance.

There's the joke though, Sas. "Palestinian government".

Do a bit of research, find out what powers this "Palestinian government" has, how they're allowed to exercise them, and how they're constrained, see WHO exercised that power, and why.

Then consider giving Hamas the chance to do what Arafat and his deep-pocketed cronies were never willing to do; govern democratically.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I hope they follow a similar path to the PLO, but since their election I've read quote after quote and I have my doubts as to whether this is a path they're willing to follow at present

I have my doubts too, but I'm also aware that if the expectations of the people they're now committed to governing run in a contrary direction to that Hamas wishes, then they will find themselves either out of power or with a new set of political priorities.

The reality of power is that ideology often has to be subordinated to pragmatism, especially i a marginal situation such as this.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I think I won't find that, in fact I know that the divide between Shia and Sunni is wider than Catholicism and Protestantism (much greater doctrinal and institutional disagreements, very little room for ecumenism), and that Sufism is to the rest of Islam what Buddhism is to Christianity.

As for the fundamentalists, kill 'em all, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu. They're all scum.

Well no, the transubstantiation, or lack thereof is an unbridgeable gap between the Catholics and Protestants.

Sufism is closer to Buddhism than anything.

 

[TAE]

On a different note, what does this election victory do to the islamic fundamentalist attitude towards democracy?

Will Hamas embrace democracy and hold free and fair elections again in a few years time?

Will other islamic radicals seek to wrong foot Washington by, for instance, calling for free elections in 'friendly dictatorships' like Saudi Arabia?

 

[ViolentPanda]

On a different note, what does this election victory do to the islamic fundamentalist attitude towards democracy?

Will Hamas embrace democracy and hold free and fair elections again in a few years time?

My (strictly personal) view is that Hamas took a hard look at what Hezbollah have achieved in Lebanon, and have decided to give the democracy thing a whirl. They literally have little to lose and much to gain, especially considering that if they put their weight behind deploying the PA budget into the social programme infrastructure they've been building over the past two decades (rather than into Fatah pockets), they have a very real hope of carrying support through to the next elections.
I'm also of the opinion (definitely not shared by any Zionists of my acquaintance ) that democratic political power will temper both the militants, and Hamas's anti-Semitic rhetoric. After all, many Arab states have ceded their calls for the destruction of Israel and have acknowledged Israel's right to exist, who's to say that Hamas won't do what those states have done, and use the withdrawal of their constitutional call as a bargaining chip?

Will other islamic radicals seek to wrong foot Washington by, for instance, calling for free elections in 'friendly dictatorships' like Saudi Arabia?

I believe that Islamic radicals have been doing that for years. Whether Islamist radicals would ever do it is another question.

 

[TAE]

I believe that Islamic radicals have been doing that for years. Whether Islamist radicals would ever do it is another question.

Remind me of the difference.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Remind me of the difference.

Islamic radicals: Radicals whose religion happens to be Islam.

Islamist radicals: proponents of fundamentalist strains of Islam whose politics are radical (usually in a reactionary rather than revolutionary way) when measured against "mainstream" Islamic practice.

Hope that helps!

 

[TAE]

So Hamas are Islamist moderates - or what?


I've just realised I know very little about Hamas' views on Islam.

* Looks up Hamas on Wikipedia *

The Hamas Covenant, written in 1988, states that the organization's goal is to "raise the banner of God over every inch of Palestine," i.e. to eliminate the State of Israel (and any secular Palestinian state which may be established), and to replace it with an Islamic Republic.

The thirty-six articles of the Covenant detail the movement's Islamist beliefs regarding the primacy of Islam in all aspects of life. The Covenant identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and considers its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." Hamas describes resisting and quelling the enemy as the individual duty of every Muslim and prescribes revolutionary roles for all members of society; including men and women, professionals, scientists and students.

Hmmm.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So Hamas are Islamist moderates - or what?

I'd say they're Islamic traditionalists as much as Islamist moderates.

I've just realised I know very little about Hamas' views on Islam.

* Looks up Hamas on Wikipedia *


Hmmm.

Hmmmm indeed. They see themselves as spiritual successors to the Muslim Brotherhood, but they're not subscribing to the hardline pro-Wahhabist views of the Brotherhood's founder Sayed (or Said or Sayid) Qutub (or K'tub or Q'tub) that one would expect in such a situation. They've not become a "Taliban", for example, or become anywhere near as pro-Wahhabist as some of the other grups that claim spiritual descent from the MB, such as those in Central Asia.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

If this were so the Palestiniains wouldn't of rejected the 2000 Camp David-Taba proposal.

Things aren't as black and white as you'd like to believe.

yeah right cos camp daivd was fiar reasoanble and legal right...

dream on...

 

[mears]

Welcome to the real world Hamas. The EU and US working together to pressure Hamas to change its radical tune.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1137605943492&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/13743587.htm

The EU and US helped to prop up the Palestinian government before the election. Where will Hamas turn to receive the funding lost from the EU and US?

No oil to sell.

 

[Joe]

yeah right cos camp daivd was fiar reasoanble and legal right...

dream on...

elaborate....

 

[nino_savatte]

What the fuck do you mean? The Palestinians to accept Israels right to exist? Who the fuck are the Palestinains to judge the right of existence of another sovereign nation state?

Aren't many Israelis Palestinian, sass? Or is that an insult? After all, it would be a slap in the face to suggest that Ariel Sharon is a Palestinian because he was born in Palestine - wouldn't it?

 

[slaar]

Israel is not going to pack up and go away. That just isn't going to happen. So then the question is, what do Hamas do?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4661066.stm

Requesting a continuation of aid flows, arguing it supports the Palestinian people is fine. But the fact remains that if they continue to decline to accept the right to existence of the Israeli state and aid is withdrawn, it will be they who suffer. Hamas can shout to the rooftops about imperialism, inequality and justice, but those are the facts.

Unless they hold to previous agreements recognising the right of two states to co-exist, nothing is going to settle.

 

[spring-peeper]

Welcome to the real world Hamas. The EU and US working together to pressure Hamas to change its radical tune.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1137605943492&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/13743587.htm

The EU and US helped to prop up the Palestinian government before the election. Where will Hamas turn to receive the funding lost from the EU and US?

No oil to sell.

Western Nations to Wait and See on Issue of Aid to Hamas

 

[mears]

Western Nations to Wait and See on Issue of Aid to Hamas

I guess the thought of Syria or Iran funding a Hamas led government is a little too much to take.

 

[spring-peeper]

I guess the thought of Syria or Iran funding a Hamas led government is a little too much to take.

Either that or a reality check after a knee-jerk reaction.

Happens a lot, ya know

 

[rogue yam]

Either that or a reality check after a knee-jerk reaction.

Secretary Rice said that there would be no U.S. funding of Hamas unless they renounce violence and recognize Israel. I think you can pretty much put that in the bank.

 

[spring-peeper]

Secretary Rice said that there would be no U.S. funding of Hamas unless they renounce violence and recognize Israel. I think you can pretty much put that in the bank.

Ah, but they did give Hamas breathing space - a chance to get settled a bit before taking any action.

I chose to see this as good sign.

 

[rogue yam]

Ah, but they did give Hamas breathing space - a chance to get settled a bit before taking any action.

I chose to see this as good sign.

I don't disagree. In fact, I see the elevation of Hamas as a positive step. Now Hamas, and the Palestinians in general, will have to choose between war and peace. Finally at an end is the fraud of Fatah claiming to renounce violence while at the same time leaving Hamas free to kill.

 

[spring-peeper]

I don't disagree. In fact, I see the elevation of Hamas as a positive step. Now Hamas, and the Palestinians in general, will have to choose between war and peace. Finally at an end is the fraud of Fatah claiming to renounce violence while at the same time leaving Hamas free to kill.

I hope they chose peace and that Israel accepts.

 

[rogue yam]

I hope they chose peace and that Israel accepts.

I hope that Hamas and the Palestinians choose peace as well. And as for the Israelis accepting it, I think that it is fairly obvious that the Israelis 1) in large measure are eager to accept peace, and 2) have no choice, if real peace is offered. This has been the "big lie" of "Palestine" and its Western supporters all along: that the real power over Israel is in the hands of Zionist extremists who don't want, and will never accept peaceful coexistance with the Palestinians. First of all, Israel is a democracy and many Israelis are either Muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs, or secular leftist Jews. Secondly, Israel relies for its security and economic well-being on the support of Americans and particularly American Jews and Evangelical Christians. America, as a whole, is about peace and cooperation and pluralism, not conquest. American Jews are largely secular and liberal, and also about the above. Finally, Evangelical Christians are all about redemption and forgiveness. If Hamas shocked the world and embraced peaceful coexistance with a sovereign Israel for its neighbor, the Zionist extremists would find themselves powerless to stop compromise and peace, even if they so desired. Thus this possibility has always been available to the Palestinians from the very beginning, all they have ever had to do is tap the ruby slippers together three times and say "We renounce violence. We recognize Israel."

I believe that most intelligent people, in their heart of hearts, know this to be so. The hatred of the "Zionists" and the "concern" for the "Palestinians" has always been about something else, in my opinion.

 

[ymu]

Lets look at the Oslo Accords then:

Israel recognises the PLO as a representative of the Palestinian people.
It gave Palestinians the right to govern themselves.
A 5 year transitional period would begin with the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho - leading to further talks.

These talks then led to the Barak proposal which could of resulted in lasting peace if the Palestinians were sincere.

I'm not suggesting Israel acted holier than thou, but they have made clear attempts at finding peace, Palestine have made the odd gesture but they've either retraced their footsteps or haven't had the ability to follow through with what they say.

This might help you Joe. Camp David (2000) wasn't quite the generous offer that Barak and Clinton made out, unless a SA-style system of quasi-independent bantustans can be seen as "generous". And it was not the Palestinians who withdrew from the talks, which continued at Taba into 2001. Israel withdrew from the talks as soon as Sharon got elected, whilst the Palestinians continued to offer the Taba talks as a basis for further negotiation. Details and maps are in the slideshow in the link.

Could you explain why Israel's "clear attempts at finding peace" included massive increases in settlement building, during the Oslo talks (under Rabin), during the Camp David talks (under Barak) and, of course, since then under Sharon, along with the building of a "separation"* wall to turn the West Bank into an even bigger prison than Gaza already is?

*"separation" in Afrikans is "apartheid"

 

[spring-peeper]

I hope that Hamas and the Palestinians choose peace as well. And as for the Israelis accepting it, I think that it is fairly obvious that the Israelis 1) in large measure are eager to accept peace, and 2) have no choice, if real peace is offered. <snip>

Should the peace being offered by Palestine be conditional on the complete withdrawl of settlers in Israeli occupied land, do you think that Israel would accept?