Fatah or Hamas ?

[ViolentPanda]

Things like the below may make this a bit more difficult.



source

Onc' Shimon has an agenda, he wants Kadima (the new political party formed by Ariel Sharon, and which Peres left the Israeli Labor party to support) to do well in the easter elections, so he's talking tough to garner rightwing votes and semi-neutralise Likud (the main opposition) at the same time

Same article has Carter claiming that the Palestine government was going to run out of money next month.

Wouldn't surprise me. Economic warfare works as well as any other form of warfare.

 

[moono]

I'm good for a fiver.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm good for a fiver.

So I've heard.

 

[mears]

Especially when country A stole what was country B to create country A

Yeah, It's all so complicated...

Its that type of attitude which complicates things in the first place. Both countries need to learn to live side by side. Hamas needs to acknowledge Israel is here to stay. Otherwise Israel can't negotiate with Hamas.

You can't negotiate with a entity that wants to destroy you, right?

Hamas has to grow up, and fast.

Israel needs to grow up and accept the will of the Palestinian people and try to negotiate with Hamas if they come to accept the state of Israel.

But Hamas must accept an Israeli state.

Right?

 

[spring-peeper]

Its that type of attitude which complicates things in the first place. Both countries need to learn to live side by side. Hamas needs to acknowledge Israel is here to stay. Otherwise Israel can't negotiate with Hamas.

You can't negotiate with a entity that wants to destroy you, right?

Hamas has to grow up, and fast.

Israel needs to grow up and accept the will of the Palestinian people and try to negotiate with Hamas if they come to accept the state of Israel.

But Hamas must accept an Israeli state.

Right?

Is Isreal going to get their settlements out of Palestine?

 

[mears]

Is Isreal going to get their settlements out of Palestine?

Settlements out of the West Bank?

 

[spring-peeper]

Settlements out of the West Bank?

West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem - pick one.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem - pick one.

there aren't any settlements in the gaza strip are there tho.. something you'd know if you had even a remote knowledge of the situation...

 

[mears]

West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem - pick one.

Its for the parties to decide. I don't have a pony in this race. I just want to see both groups grow up and make nice.

Both will have to give a little for a solid agreemnet.

 

[spring-peeper]

Its for the parties to decide. I don't have a pony in this race. I just want to see both groups grow up and make nice.

Both will have to give a little for a solid agreemnet.

Me too, but I live in an area where the only people that show any interest in taking over parts of my country are the Americans. If it was my land that was being occupied, I would continue to fight.

I think it would be nice of Israel to pull all their settlers back into the area that the UN designated for them.

If Israel were to start respecting the borders, then it may be easier for Palestine to accept Israel's right to exist.

 

[Joe]

Me too, but I live in an area where the only people that show any interest in taking over parts of my country are the Americans. If it was my land that was being occupied, I would continue to fight.

I think it would be nice of Israel to pull all their settlers back into the area that the UN designated for them.

If Israel were to start respecting the borders, then it may be easier for Palestine to accept Israel's right to exist.

If this were so the Palestiniains wouldn't of rejected the 2000 Camp David-Taba proposal.

Things aren't as black and white as you'd like to believe.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If this were so the Palestiniains wouldn't of rejected the 2000 Camp David-Taba proposal.

Things aren't as black and white as you'd like to believe.

Do us all a favour then: Please lay out for us the munificent proposals of President Barak that the ungrateful Palestinians turned down.

Then we can see whether things are as black and white as you appear to believe.

 

[Joe]

Do us all a favour then: Please lay out for us the munificent proposals of President Barak that the ungrateful Palestinians turned down.

Then we can see whether things are as black and white as you appear to believe.

95% of the West Bank & Gaza Strip
Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem
The Temple Mount
Israel would accept some of the refugees
Those that did not move to israel would recieve $30 billion

And as we both know arafat rejected the offer without putting up a counter one.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So if Hamas were to declare outright independence for the west bank and gaza, the israeli government would be happy with that?

Hamas could go and buy fighter planes and tanks for the palestinian's new army and air force, the israeli government would not try to stop them?

I find that hard to believe.

Consider why Israel is in the West Bank and was in Gaza in the first place. Israel occupied those territories as a buffer agsinst the wars of agression that their neighbours waged on them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

95% of the West Bank & Gaza Strip
Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem
The Temple Mount
Israel would accept some of the refugees
Those that did not move to israel would recieve $30 billion

And as we both know arafat rejected the offer without putting up a counter one.

Yeah, but you've missed setting out just how that 95% was comprised, haven't you?

Which makes all the difference in the world as to whether the offer was a worthwhile one or not.

 

[Joe]

Yeah, but you've missed setting out just how that 95% was comprised, haven't you?

Which makes all the difference in the world as to whether the offer was a worthwhile one or not.

then explain why arafat failed to present a counter offer

 

[TAE]

Consider why Israel is in the West Bank and was in Gaza in the first place. Israel occupied those territories as a buffer agsinst the wars of agression that their neighbours waged on them.

That does not answer my question.

Does Israel recognise the palestinians' right to have their own free country with their own military?

Are you saying that the reason why Israel was there was self defence, and that reason still exists, which implies that the israelis would not recognise/accept an independent palestinian state, or (on the other hand) are you saying that the threat which once existed is now gone and therefore Israel would recognise/accept an independent palestinian state?

(BTW - I am very much in favour of Hamas recognising/accepting Israel).

 

[mears]

Me too, but I live in an area where the only people that show any interest in taking over parts of my country are the Americans. If it was my land that was being occupied, I would continue to fight.

I think it would be nice of Israel to pull all their settlers back into the area that the UN designated for them.

If Israel were to start respecting the borders, then it may be easier for Palestine to accept Israel's right to exist.

The US wants to take over your country?

 

[moono]

spring-peeper;

I think it would be nice of Israel to pull all their settlers back into the area that the UN designated for them.

Yes. If only we could rid ourselves of those massed ranks of American-armed -and-fed heavily-committed Zionist estate agents and their avarice-sodden clientele.

 

[ViolentPanda]

then explain why arafat failed to present a counter offer

Well at least you're spelling out where you stand.

Why did Arafat not present a counter-offer? I don't know. Perhaps he was so insulted by Barak's sheer effrontery (after all, it's not as if he hadn't already let himself be arse-raped by Israel in negotiations in the previous decade, is it?) that he thought he was better off just giving Barak the finger.

 

[Joe]

Well at least you're spelling out where you stand.

Why did Arafat not present a counter-offer? I don't know. Perhaps he was so insulted by Barak's sheer effrontery (after all, it's not as if he hadn't already let himself be arse-raped by Israel in negotiations in the previous decade, is it?) that he thought he was better off just giving Barak the finger.

Lets look at the Oslo Accords then:

Israel recognises the PLO as a representative of the Palestinian people.
It gave Palestinians the right to govern themselves.
A 5 year transitional period would begin with the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho - leading to further talks.

These talks then led to the Barak proposal which could of resulted in lasting peace if the Palestinians were sincere.

I'm not suggesting Israel acted holier than thou, but they have made clear attempts at finding peace, Palestine have made the odd gesture but they've either retraced their footsteps or haven't had the ability to follow through with what they say.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Me too, but I live in an area where the only people that show any interest in taking over parts of my country are the Americans. If it was my land that was being occupied, I would continue to fight.

I think it would be nice of Israel to pull all their settlers back into the area that the UN designated for them.

If Israel were to start respecting the borders, then it may be easier for Palestine to accept Israel's right to exist.

What the fuck do you mean? The Palestinians to accept Israels right to exist? Who the fuck are the Palestinains to judge the right of existence of another sovereign nation state?

 

[moono]

Who the fuck are the Palestinains to judge the right of existence of another sovereign nation state?

As you ask, the Palestinians have UN Observer status and have every right to point out that Israel has FAILED to comply with requirements of Resolution 194. Israel's Statehood and UN membership were conditional upon Israel complying with the requirements of Resolution 194.

Not many people know that. I'm pleased that you're one of them.

 

[Joe]

As you ask, the Palestinians have UN Observer status and have every right to point out that Israel has FAILED to comply with requirements of Resolution 194. Israel's Statehood and UN membership were conditional upon Israel complying with the requirements of Resolution 194.

Resolution 194 was a General Assembly resolution, General Assembly resolutions are not binding.

 

[Sasaferrato]

As you ask, the Palestinians have UN Observer status and have every right to point out that Israel has FAILED to comply with requirements of Resolution 194. Israel's Statehood and UN membership were conditional upon Israel complying with the requirements of Resolution 194.

Not many people know that. I'm pleased that you're one of them.

Care to explain? From your post I could easily deduce that you feel that Israel has no right of existence.

Just to remind you why Israel is where it is :

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/israel_bordering_states_pol_1970.jpg

The map shows very clearly why Israel is occupying ceratian areas, occupation that occured after its neighbours tried to destroy it.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Lets look at the Oslo Accords then:

Israel recognises the PLO as a representative of the Palestinian people.
It gave Palestinians the right to govern themselves.
A 5 year transitional period would begin with the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho - leading to further talks.

These talks then led to the Barak proposal which could of resulted in lasting peace if the Palestinians were sincere.

I'm not suggesting Israel acted holier than thou, but they have made clear attempts at finding peace, Palestine have made the odd gesture but they've either retraced their footsteps or haven't had the ability to follow through with what they say.

Hamas' charter makes it clear that they wish to destroy Israel. They don't of course have the guts to go to war, they much prefer their filthy and despicable use of suicide bombers, sent in the name of Allah the just and merciful of course.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hamas' charter makes it clear that they wish to destroy Israel. They don't of course have the guts to go to war, they much prefer their filthy and despicable use of suicide bombers, sent in the name of Allah the just and merciful of course.

Don't talk shite, it makes you look stupid, which I know damn well you're not.

Hamas have (except in terms of the suicide bombing which are a Palestinian phenomenon) done exactly the same as any movement resisting territorial occupation do.
You talk about going to war as if Hamas (a Palestinian, rather than a pan-Arabic organisation, or a Shia organisation like Hezbollah) either want to or are in a position to.

As for the crack about Allah, as if Islam is a monolithic religion rather than being just as factional as Christianity, grow up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Lets look at the Oslo Accords then:

Israel recognises the PLO as a representative of the Palestinian people.
It gave Palestinians the right to govern themselves.
A 5 year transitional period would begin with the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho - leading to further talks.

These talks then led to the Barak proposal which could of resulted in lasting peace if the Palestinians were sincere.

I'm not suggesting Israel acted holier than thou, but they have made clear attempts at finding peace, Palestine have made the odd gesture but they've either retraced their footsteps or haven't had the ability to follow through with what they say.

I'll get back to you after I've dug up a precis of the accords I have lurking somewhere, as I'm not sure you're not (intentionally or unintentionally) putting an undeserved gloss on them.

 

[Joe]

Hamas have (except in terms of the suicide bombing which are a Palestinian phenomenon) done exactly the same as any movement resisting territorial occupation do.
You talk about going to war as if Hamas (a Palestinian, rather than a pan-Arabic organisation, or a Shia organisation like Hezbollah) either want to or are in a position to.

I request that you give the Hamas Covenant a glance, as this is far more complex than freedom fighters fighting an opressor these "freedom fighters" are fighting for the destruction of Israel.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I request that you give the Hamas Covenant a glance, as this is far more complex than freedom fighters fighting an opressor these "freedom fighters" are fighting for the destruction of Israel.

I've had the misfortune to read it, but I'm also realist enough to know that not all members of organisations sign up because they've read the policy documents.
Why are you mentioning "freedom fighters", btw? I was talking about a resistance movement (which implies a political and tactical engagement and is allowable under the UN charter) rather than a guerrilla force.

Do you really think that Hamas won't discard the call for the destruction of Israel the moment it becomes politically imperative or politically beneficial enough for them to do so? That's the path that many of the Arab states have trod, so I'm hopeful Hamas will go in that direction.