Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Fat Beauty Contest Now

haylz said:
I find striking comparisons with obesity and my alcoholism.....:(

Well I think that alcohol addiction, drug addiction, food addiction, self harming.. they're all manifestations of something deeper. It's just that they're viewed in different ways by society.

Drug addicition can be sleazy and disgusting or cool.. depending on who it is... same as alcohol addiction. Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, George Best, Pete Docherty... none of them are as reviled as fat people... nothing romantic about being fat. Even anorexia is viewed with pity - no one says "well they just lack self discipline... if they really wanted to gain weight they would... "... whereas someone who battles against obesity for their entire lives... well that's just weak willed and disgusting.
 
Why is losing weight so hard?

Let me place to one side for a moment, my own situation post eating disorder.


Dieting: Dieting requires that you operate on a negative energy level. That is, that you expend more energy than you use to fuel your body. This has a number of problems. Firstly, this is, by it's very nature, a physically exhausting process. Maintaining it for a number of weeks or months is hard. Maintaining it for over a year, as most chronically obese people would have to do, would be a mammoth achievement. Not impossible - but certainly hard work - to spend every day for over a year operating on less fuel than your body requires to easily go about its work.

Secondly, the body is not designed to operate on less fuel than required, and will perceive that you have entered a period of starvation. It will cling on to fat reserves, and send signals to the brain craving high fat foods. That bag of chips that seemed a bit "meh" before you started the diet is now all you can think of.

Another problem with dieting is that it sets up a polarised idea of foods. Some foods are permitted, some foods are "bad". The bad foods are banished and so on the one hand, the dieter focuses on them (don't think of an elephant. what are you thinking of?), and on the other hand, if you do transgress and eat the doughnut, it becomes a major problem. What also happens by the same token, is that when the diet is over (or temporarily broken) the banned foods become fetishised and the feeling of having been deprived of them makes the dieter overindulge on them. In fact, it needent be specific foods. An experiment described in one of my BED books says how a group were given a restricted diet of 1500 cals per day for a period of days ( a month, iirc) over the next month, this group ate nearly twice as many calories as they had done the month before the experiment.

Emotional eating. The binging after a diet to comfort the feeling of deprivation is emotional eating in itself, but many people - particularly women - suffer from emotional eating. Eating as self medication. being fat often leads to depression. Dieting is stressful. Failing on a diet is upsetting. all of these emotions can trigger an emotional eater. Then the self loathing of realising you've made the situation worse kicks in, and can cause destructive behaviours - in my case, self harming through overeating.

I hated myself so much, hated my mind for letting me do something so stupid as buy and eat food my body didn't need; hated my body for being so ugly that complete strangers abused me in the street (or pub, or dentists, or bus), hated my body for aching and hurting as I walked down the street - that I wanted to punish myself. So I would shop, and then I would sit and force food into my mouth until it hurt. Then more, until i was in tears from the pain. More. until i really couldn't eat any more - so i'd wait five, ten minutes - until the pain subsided just enough to force more food in.

Not all long term dieters will do that - of course not - but a massive majority of dieter have net gain of weight one year after finishing their diets. Diet five, six times - more - and you're looking at a massive weight gain. A messed up body image. A really bizarre attitude to food.

My eating disorder was 3 years ago now. I'm still working on having a normal, healthy attitude to food. If i want pizza, i have it - because then I'll have a normal sized portion, and not four family sized ones.

Dieting works for some people - but i'd say if the weight goes back on, it's a slippery slope.

Exercise. Exercise is a less attractive option. It's uncomfortable and the weight takes much longer to shift. You're still looking at a negative balance of calories in to energy spent, too.

Many overweight people have problems with their joints and/or back. They are embarrassed to wear a swimming costume.

The answer does lie with exercise, but it's a really long term solution, and because of this requires massive will power. What do i hate more, being fat or spending the next few years feeling embarrased, sore and achy? Rationally, I know it must get easier but it's a hard sell - i'm working on it.
 
haylz said:
I find striking comparisons with obesity and my alcoholism.....:(
i think that's very true. I was truck by your all or nothing thread, haylz - i know howw that feels. I had to know drinking on the head for a long while. Thankfully i did so before it became as out of control as my eating.

I really wish i could go cold turkey with food. I don't even like it that much any more.:(
 
Thanks for taking the time to write this spanglechick. It sounds awful and I'm genuinely sorry that you have suffered in this way.

And yes ...it does sound like being symptomatic of something deeper.

Maybe it's the "something deeper" that makes it so hard to get the willpower? What scares me is seeing children in this country being reared to be fat adults.

America here we come.
 
spanglechick said:
i think that's very true. I was truck by your all or nothing thread, haylz - i know howw that feels. I had to know drinking on the head for a long while. Thankfully i did so before it became as out of control as my eating.

I really wish i could go cold turkey with food. I don't even like it that much any more.:(

Thats why it can be harder and i saw countless relapses in obese peeps as food is a necessity so its very hard to grasp as a human why you should see it as bad...

Alcohol well its a mind altering substance/drug so it has a danger potential, not that that makes a difference when it gets it s grip.....


I have a poor relationship with food, my newest fad is nurishment drinks as it saves me from having to chew :rolleyes:

Iam patsy.......:D
 
Spanglechick's post above really does sum up a lot of the problems with dieting - for many many people.

The only thing that I would like to point out (not necessarily in reaction to Spanglechick's post) is that being fat/obese does not necessarily preclude exercise. I swim 1000 metres every day, I cycle everywhere, I play badminton once a week. Until recently when I became too overweight I was a triathlete - albeit a slow and rather rounded one (and still would be but for the running which is problematic at my weight).

Being fat does not equate to being lazy. The fact is that at my weight there's a huge embarrassment factor to get over when you exercise. Imagine trying to run (ok walk quickly..:D ) only to have people shout abuse at you from cars on a regular basis. You have to be pretty strong willed to overcome that. And actually I think I am strong willed. I don't give a fuck if someone sees me in a swimming costume. I like swimming, I'm actually a very good swimmer and if some arsehole thinks they're going to discourage me by shouting abuse - then they can fuck right off... :D My problem is not so much about what other people think of me.. it's more about what I think about myself!

And getting back to the TV programme tonight... the women who appeared on it almost certainly have to put up with the same kind of shit - yet they too have the same - "if you don't like it you can fuck off" attitude. I don't think it's about them seeking approval at all. I think it's about them doing something they want to do regardless of the inevitable derision they're likely to receive.
 
gaijingirl said:
The only thing that I would like to point out (not necessarily in reaction to Spanglechick's post) is that being fat/obese does not necessarily preclude exercise. I swim 1000 metres every day, I cycle everywhere, I play badminton once a week. Until recently when I became too overweight I was a triathlete - albeit a slow and rather rounded one (and still would be but for the running which is problematic at my weight).

Being fat does not equate to being lazy. The fact is that at my weight there's a huge embarrassment factor to get over when you exercise. Imagine trying to run (ok walk quickly..:D ) only to have people shout abuse at you from cars on a regular basis. You have to be pretty strong willed to overcome that. And actually I think I am strong willed. I don't give a fuck if someone sees me in a swimming costume. I like swimming, I'm actually a very good swimmer and if some arsehole thinks they're going to discourage me by shouting abuse - then they can fuck right off... :D My problem is not so much about what other people think of me.. it's more about what I think about myself!
I really admire you for the exercise you do. You are quite inspirational, you know.
 
spanglechick said:
I really admire you for the exercise you do. You are quite inspirational, you know.

heh heh...

thanks... :) To be honest, I get a real kick out of it and the thing I hate most about my weight is the way it stops me getting those drop shots at badminton or squash, doing 1500 metres in the pool in the same time as I now 1000 metres now, or being able to run 3x round Brockwell Park as opposed to getting aches in my ankles from walking.

I can't tell you how much of a kick it is to overtake 6-pack man in the pool, or sail past super-fit guy on my bike.... :D I reckon I'm a one-woman public health service tbh... 'cos they always start trying real hard to regain ground when they've seen fat "lazy" bird overtake them... :D
 
I'm back on the Paul Mckenna but this time with the journal and I've no idea if I've lost weight but I'm certainly calmer around food. I'm eating what I want, when I want and learning to listen to my body when it says it's full. It's a whole different mindset as I'm usually weighing, measuring, panicking about not losing, fucking starving etc. I feel like there's a whole chunk of energy freed up to think about other things (like tea cosies :D ) Let's hope it lasts :)
 
madzone said:
Plenty of people on the thread have told you what it's about. You can't see past your prejudice.

If you think I have prejudice, then you have selected reading ability.

Everything boils down to willpower ultimately. You are just confusing things that are hard to do with being impossible to quit. That is a cop out.

Practically everything worth having requires some effort or comittment or willpower. It's about taking responsibility.

I'm not saying that I don't have sympathy, I do. And I have suffered some addictions myself. I'm also not saying that it can always be done alone ..it often requires outside help. But it is still a choice. To deny that is simply delusional and seeking to offload the blame somewhere else.

And just for the record, once again, I have no issues with people who are obese, if that is how theyare happy to be, fine. I NEVER EVER feel or show any discriminatory behaviour towards people like this.

But if they are not happy about their situation, there are choices. Only problem is, they are not easy choices.
 
zed said:
If you think I have prejudice, then you have selected reading ability.

Everything boils down to willpower ultimately. You are just confusing things that are hard to do with being impossible to quit. That is a cop out.

Practically everything worth having requires some effort or comittment or willpower. It's about taking responsibility.

I'm not saying that I don't have sympathy, I do. And I have suffered some addictions myself. I'm also not saying that it can always be done alone ..it often requires outside help. But it is still a choice. To deny that is simply delusional and seeking to offload the blame somewhere else.

And just for the record, once again, I have no issues with people who are obese, if that is how theyare happy to be, fine. I NEVER EVER feel or show any discriminatory behaviour towards people like this.

But if they are not happy about their situation, there are choices. Only problem is, they are not easy choices.

That's all waaaay too simplified and you know it :)

I have read your comments thoroughly and IMO you are clearly prejudiced. But hey, such is life.
 
madzone said:
That's all waaaay too simplified and you know it :)

I have read your comments thoroughly and IMO you are clearly prejudiced. But hey, such is life.

Prejudiced in what way?

Because I believe that we each have the power to deal with and/or control our own personal problems/addictions/weaknesses?

Seriously, how am I prejuduced towards larger people?
 
zed said:
If you think I have prejudice, then you have selected reading ability.

Everything boils down to willpower ultimately. You are just confusing things that are hard to do with being impossible to quit. That is a cop out.

Practically everything worth having requires some effort or comittment or willpower. It's about taking responsibility.

I'm not saying that I don't have sympathy, I do. And I have suffered some addictions myself. I'm also not saying that it can always be done alone ..it often requires outside help. But it is still a choice. To deny that is simply delusional and seeking to offload the blame somewhere else.

And just for the record, once again, I have no issues with people who are obese, if that is how theyare happy to be, fine. I NEVER EVER feel or show any discriminatory behaviour towards people like this.

But if they are not happy about their situation, there are choices. Only problem is, they are not easy choices.

From spangles' and gaijingirl's excellent posts on this thread, I have taken away:

  • the self-abuse that is involved in overeating
  • the difficulty of shifting the way you perceive food
  • how hard it is to exercise when you are overweight
  • the binge/hate/binge cycle
  • the difficulty of dealing with an addiction which is not something you can just cut out of your life altogether (like alcohol or heroin)

None of that has anything to do with willpower. You're not reading properly.
 
trashpony said:
From spangles' and gaijingirl's excellent posts on this thread, I have taken away:

  • the self-abuse that is involved in overeating
  • the difficulty of shifting the way you perceive food
  • how hard it is to exercise when you are overweight
  • the binge/hate/binge cycle
  • the difficulty of dealing with an addiction which is not something you can just cut out of your life altogether (like alcohol or heroin)

None of that has anything to do with willpower. You're not reading properly.

But what I am reading from you (and them) is that "it's hard" and "the difficulty".

I understand it is hard. But is it impossible?

If not, then it can be dealt with. If it can be dealt with, it will require some willpower or determination or sheer bloodymindedness. No?
 
zed said:
But what I am reading from you (and them) is that "it's hard" and "the difficulty".

I understand it is hard. But is it impossible?

If not, then it can be dealt with. If it can be dealt with, it will require some willpower or determination or sheer bloodymindedness. No?

Of course it can be done - my point is that it requires a lot more than willpower to do it - it requires a huge shift in the person's thinking and massive re-education around their relationship with food.

Do you think smack addicts are just lacking in willpower, that they're just a bit feeble minded? Or do you think they are deserving of our sympathy and support?
 
trashpony said:
Of course it can be done - my point is that it requires a lot more than willpower to do it - it requires a huge shift in the person's thinking and massive re-education around their relationship with food.

And usually a shit load of work done around self esteem.
 
zed said:
Prejudiced in what way?

Because I believe that we each have the power to deal with and/or control our own personal problems/addictions/weaknesses?

Seriously, how am I prejuduced towards larger people?


Power to overcome an addiction,weakness, problem is only possible when you throw the towel in and concede you need help.
The problem is..........for such a problem to persist in the first place , you need deniall to run alongside it .....Denial keeps us sick and tells us we are ok!!!
So it can take years to finally come to terms with a said problem, not as easy as willpower, in fact will power and controll are an absolute liability, they keep peeps ill and unhealthy and thinking they are in control when infact the food or drink is.....
 
Of course I think they deserve sympathy and support ....assuming they want that. Some don't. But if they do, they have to want to achieve some significant weight loss.

That desire has to be real. Too often it isn't.

It is just trotted out, normally with the caveats that "it's hard" ...which is why I get a little bit argumentative when I hear those words, because often they are closely followed by excuses.

Anyway, this discussion is getting abit circular, so I'm out. I'm sorry you think I'm prejudiced against obese people ...I really am not.

Have a nice day.

:)
 
zed said:
But what I am reading from you (and them) is that "it's hard" and "the difficulty".

I understand it is hard. But is it impossible?

If not, then it can be dealt with. If it can be dealt with, it will require some willpower or determination or sheer bloodymindedness. No?

Yes it is possible, i donbt believe anyones a hopeless case, it just takes some years to come to terms with how ill they are...

Everyones moment of clarity comes at different times, but it does come....
 
trashpony said:
Of course it can be done - my point is that it requires a lot more than willpower to do it - it requires a huge shift in the person's thinking and massive re-education around their relationship with food.

Exactly... it's more than just a mind over matter for some of us. It really is something which affects our mental health.

Personally I reckon I've got bags of willpower. I gave up a 17 year, 20-a-day smoking habit on my 2nd attempt.

I got up every morning at stupid o'clock to train for triathlons for well over a year... I ran in the snow, the rain - you name it.

I've lived on nothing but juice for 8 days, milkshakes for meals for weeks, pointed every bite that goes into my mouth for months! I've been injected, prodded, stuffed with pills.

Frankly without the willpower, I might have been better off - if I hadn't spent my life determined to lose weight and seeing it as the holy grail to happiness - it probably wouldn't have become such a huge issue - I might have a normal relationship with food.

As I've gotten older I've realised that almost everyone has "something"... some foible or addiction of some sort to varying degrees of destructiveness. The trouble with "this" particular addiction is that everyone can see it - alcoholism and drug/other addictions can (to a certain extent) be hidden. That gorgeous girl with the flat stomach that you might admire may well be slowly killing herself some other way - until you get to know her you won't know.
 
gaijingirl said:
Exactly... it's more than just a mind over matter for some of us. It really is something which affects our mental health.

Personally I reckon I've got bags of willpower. I gave up a 17 year, 20-a-day smoking habit on my 2nd attempt.

I got up every morning at stupid o'clock to train for triathlons for well over a year... I ran in the snow, the rain - you name it.

I've lived on nothing but juice for 8 days, milkshakes for meals for weeks, pointed every bite that goes into my mouth for months! I've been injected, prodded, stuffed with pills.

Frankly without the willpower, I might have been better off - if I hadn't spent my life determined to lose weight and seeing it as the holy grail to happiness - it probably wouldn't have become such a huge issue - I might have a normal relationship with food.

As I've gotten older I've realised that almost everyone has "something"... some foible or addiction of some sort to varying degrees of destructiveness. The trouble with "this" particular addiction is that everyone can see it - alcoholism and drug/other addictions can (to a certain extent) be hidden. That gorgeous girl with the flat stomach that you might admire may well be slowly killing herself some other way - until you get to know her you won't know.

Word.

:cool: :cool: :cool:
 
This...

thedyslexic1 said:
:Hate the skinny barbie doll look. look like trash to me. they all look the same.

...is part of the problem.


When people stop insulting other people for the way they look whether slim, very thin, curvy, overweight then we won't have this "war on sizes".

There is serious double standards within the media which spills into society and it's not teaching us anything.

When will women wake up and realise we're all in this together, whatever shape or size? Granted there are differences but insecurities are insecurities and one is neither less nor more important than the other. We should be united, not divided cos whatever size you are, someone's gonna want to criticise - and these are the people we should be against.
 
i never thought i'd be sticking up for zed, but i think he was big enough to say that his opinions had changed last night. i felt this was quite a positive thread, in the end - and i really valued haylz perspective, too.


the following paragraph is not for the weak of stomach:
i wanted to say, though - that what has helped with the self loathing quite a lot is being lucky enough to have a wonderful boyfriend who loves me and fancies me. i can't always see what he sees in me, physically (i think he's probably a bit weird) - but to know that someone really, honestly thinks i'm beautiful and sexy can't help but boost my confidence. he doesn't tell me often, because i end up rolling my eyes - but i do know he thinks it.
 
spanglechick said:
i never thought i'd be sticking up for zed, but i think he was big enough to say that his opinions had changed last night. i felt this was quite a positive thread, in the end - and i really valued haylz perspective, too.

I'm afraid I still suspect he's a low-grade troll. He posted this:

I have no problem with fat people. In fact I hired someone a few months back who was morbidly obese ....not because I'm a hero or some fucking champion of the underdog. Just because she had the best skill set for the job. And I know that she would (and has been) discriminated against.

followed by this:

Originally Posted by spanglechick
The prejudice against fat people runs deeper. we're invisible because society sees us as having bad characters and personalities. As zenie said: having no control.

I think that is total rubbish.

And it is comments like this that make this an almost impossible topic to discuss without things getting heated ...
"Society sees us as having bad characters"!!!

FFS.

So on the one hand he agrees that overweight people are discriminated against but rejecting one of the main reasons they are.

Hmm ...
 
Back
Top Bottom