FAO anyone who's up for trying a Really Interesting Coffee (deadline 19/2)

[Herbsman.]

Yo Mrs Quoad

I seeem to remember reading that common, cheap espresso machines exert a higher pressure on the coffee than proper machines, due to shitecunt ESE pod standardisation requirements. Is this true? And is there any way of taking one of these machines apart and somehow reducing the pressure?

 

[mrs quoad]

Yo Mrs Quoad

I seeem to remember reading that common, cheap espresso machines exert a higher pressure on the coffee than proper machines, due to shitecunt ESE pod standardisation requirements. Is this true? And is there any way of taking one of these machines apart and somehow reducing the pressure?

Depends on the machine.

Even something like a Gaggia Classic (£200-299ish) comes with a standard factory setting of 11-12 bar, thanks to ESE pod / standardisation requirements.

My £625ish Isomac Zaffiro came with a factory setting of 12 bar (ffs!), but also - thankfully - with a pressure guage built in to the front so I could tell why the coffee tasted like rancid ferret piss.

Erm, many machines of a certain standard will have something called an overpressure valve (OPV). It's the machine's way of stopping the pump from blowing up if - e.g. - the coffee's too tightly packed, and no water's getting through. It diverts water from the group head (the chunk of machinery / pipes / shower head where the portafilter locks in) back into the reservoir when the water pressure hits a certain level. As a result, it's also the main means of moderating the pressure at which water is delivered to the group head / coffee puck. There's a passable chance it'll be alterable on a given machine - particularly those that aren't complete throw-aways.

How to find it:

Many machines have two tubes going into the water reservoir. A long one that draws water in, and feeds it to the pump; and a short one that returns over-pressure water. If you follow the shorter tube, it should lead to the OPV... Which is likely to be situated in a three-way junction between the pump and the boiler (or thermoblock, or whatever)...

If the pipes are detachable (they may be glued on on some machines), it might be worth having a rummage around. If there's something twiddlable / rotatable in the workings, there's a chance that's the adjustability. Some - e.g. the Zaffiro's - are adjustable with a pair of pliers and a firm grip. Others - e.g. the Gaggia Classic - need an Allen key. Others... might not be adjustable, and might be broken by having a good rummage

Always worth googling the name of the machine plus OPV. If someone's already done it, chances are you'll find a link.

e2a: always, always, always mark the starting point on the OpV before beginning to twiddle

 

[Herbsman.]

Cool, man. So what's generally considered to be the 'proper' pressure then?

WRT the machine, it looks like I might end up getting an old one off freecycle, so pressure adjustment might not be doable for the time being. Until I've saved up a bit for a reconditioned Gaggia, money will most likely be spent on a Zass grinder and mail order roasted beans instead. Although I've been told there's a coffee roaster in Shirley, which is 8.5 miles away according to Google - just about rideable if I was gonna pick up a few weeks' worth of beanz:

I enjoy coffee roasters in Shirley (though not at all in the city centre), Martyn is a friendly fellow that has kindly roasted small batches of coffee from the 'secret stash' not advertised on the boards behind the counter (ask to see the buckets of greens in the corridor by the kitchens), such as the hand-picked organic from zimbabwe and kindly took me through the whole roasting process. It's not perfect, but a real gem nonetheless. I think it's sometimes a bit harsh to judge cafés with the same criteria as home espresso, since compared to almost every other café in Birmingham Coffee Roaster's does serve a 'real' espresso, albeit not a perfect one.

I used some pre-ground Somerfield stuff at my friend's house the other day, it was one of those 'one size fits all' grinds, and the bag had been open for ages (it was sat there open when I last visited weeks ago ) - bog standard electric machine with no adjustment, and it still tasted nicer than anything I've made in a cafetiere or mocha pot, or purchased from cafe's in town...

Another question, more of a rhetorical one this time: what the FUCK is the point in spending £6+ on one of those 250g tins of Illy coffee? It's already roasted and ground, so it's pretty old, and it's gonna be stale soon after you open it - is it really that good that it's worth more than double that of another popular brand of coffee?! £6 for pre-ground ffs! You can get fairly freshly roasted shit cheaper than that!

 

[mrs quoad]

Herbie: check on TMC whether or not the Zass you're looking at will be ok for espresso. If not TMC, then elsewhere. Home-Barista have a grinder forum IIRC. Do make sure someone can confirm it is useful for espresso use before you spend money on it. Some Zass grinders are, some Zass grinders aren't (AFAIK).

Re: machines... you never know!

No harm looking around for good second-hand deals (like the La Pavoni lever machine with Iberital MC2 electric going for £250 on TMC), equally no harm in waiting. Also, if you do get a freecycle machine, have a look! You never know what'll be quality, and what won't! It might have a very adjustable OPV indeed!

Oh... 8-10 bar would be the conventional recommended pressure. With 10 being risky-high (10 would mostly be 'I can't mod it any lower, that's why it's on 10). 8 would be bold-low (with some exceptions - so my Elektra MCAL has a pressure gradient that apparently starts at 7ish bar, dropping to about 6 by the end of the shot. That wouldn't work in a pump machine). 8.5-9.5 would be more conventionally recommended. With most people opting for 9-9.25. Mine's on 9.25, because I had a tinker a while back to experiment with a bit more pressure, and haven't gotten around to lowering it again.

 

[Herbsman.]

Well I'm sure I read that 9 bar was the 'proper' pressure, either on here (probably written by you) or on some coffee site or other, or perhaps the coffee appreciation thread on LFGSS.com - thought I'd ask in case I imagined it... but Jesus... 15 bar sounds bloody excessive. WtF?!! 15 bar FFS!?!?!?

 

[mrs quoad]

Well I'm sure I read that 9 bar was the 'proper' pressure, either on here (probably written by you) or on some coffee site or other, or perhaps the coffee appreciation thread on LFGSS.com - thought I'd ask in case I imagined it... but Jesus... 15 bar sounds bloody excessive. WtF?!! 15 bar FFS!?!?!?

Well, pods need 11-12ish.

I'm not aware of any machine that'd actually churn out 15bar. Though a few places certainly advertise machines' pumps ratings, as a bit of a willy-waver to claw in the punters. ("14 bar pump!!! omg!!! I want that one!!!")

tbf, it's all about parameters, Herbie...

All you're looking at with x bar is how much pressure you're using to get x quantity of water through a packed-down puck. The higher the pressure, the more finely ground the coffee'll need to be (or the firmer the tamp).

There seems to be a fairly promising interaction at about 9 bar, 25-30s for 0.75-1.25ish floz out of 7ish g.

Lower pressures can produce some really, really interesting results too. My MCAL produces beautifully thin, delicate, nuanced shots that really bring out the flavours of a bean. Not a great deal of crema, but a genuinely unique shot. You wouldn't / couldn't get that at 9bar.

Equally, grinding too tight at 9bar can produce some really curious results. I've had 40-50s shots that've been beyond awesome. Some of the best shots of my life have been cock-ups - including a 42 second beauty late last week.

If it takes 40s to pour, it has - clearly - been ground too fine, or tamped too tight. Yet that self-same puck would (presumably) produce a similar volume of liquid in 25-30 seconds if the machine was running at a higher pressure.

Yet IME that just doesn't work. I'm guessing there's something about the fineness of the particles and the speed at which they're stripped of their oils / flavours that tends to need longer to brew (i.e. 9bar, 42s). And that beyond a certain pressure, the pressure / grind equation just stops working.

I guess there might be something in that that means that... if the grind is right for 12 bar, the shot is going to taste thin / bitter / foul. And if the grind is wrong for 12 bar, then the shot is still going to taste thin / acidic / foul.

*shrugs*

 

[Herbsman.]

Ah, bit like camera manufacturers boasting that their cameras have x megapixels, and they sell like hotcakes because the consumer is too thick / not informed enough to understand that more megapixels does not equal a better camera.

I suppose you could compare a grinder to a camera lens, and the quality of the light to the quality of bean...

Explain coffee by making analogies to photography and I'm sure to understand!

 

[mrs quoad]

This probably isn't the best time to mention the phone I got on Sunday, then.

I chose it because the camera's *cough* 8 megapixels

I think it's probably for the best if I don't explain coffee with camera similes / metaphors, herbie

 

[Herbsman.]

hahaha

 

[mrs quoad]

hahaha

Ennit.

The games are wank.

 

[mrs quoad]

Given you've bumped this...

https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/Bolivia-Machacamarca-BV-María-and-Mario-Andrade-2009.html

Truly awesome.

Getting a reputation as one of the best single origins for some time. Toomuchcoffee has a thread devoted to it.

Discounted to £4/250g this weekend: https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/Why-Is-Has-Bean-Green.html

I've just ordered 4kg of it green, and 2kg green and blended

My money is quite emphatically where my mouth is. Though my mouth seems to be cashing cheques my wallet can't particularly afford

 

[Herbsman.]

nazi

 

[Vintage Paw]

Discounted to £4/250g this weekend: https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/Why-Is-Has-Bean-Green.html

I've just ordered 4kg of it green, and 2kg green and blended

My money is quite emphatically where my mouth is. Though my mouth seems to be cashing cheques my wallet can't particularly afford

Nom.

I've decided when I buy myself a new kitchen later this year I'm also going to buy myself a new coffee machine because my FF just isn't cutting it anymore. I might, just might, decide to get a hottop too. Of course, then I'll need a better grinder

 

[mrs quoad]

Nom.

I've decided when I buy myself a new kitchen later this year I'm also going to buy myself a new coffee machine because my FF just isn't cutting it anymore. I might, just might, decide to get a hottop too. Of course, then I'll need a better grinder

a) any ideas which / what machine? What's your price range?
b) Hottop... yeah... I go through patches. tbh, one of my frustrations is that some beans are shit in it. Some are awesome, some - particularly bright beans - just don't cut it.
c) Any thoughts on which grinder...?

Might be an idea to start looking at tmc now There's usually an awesome second hand grinder or machine being touted somewhere

 

[Vintage Paw]

No idea of price range at the moment. I don't have the money yet, but will later. We're probably looking at no sooner than September, maybe not even before Christmas tbh.

In terms of the machine, I want something basic but a good, reliable workhorse. If it looks nice that'll be a plus, but after being stung by the sexy looks of the FF it's a case of fool me once, etc.

As for grinder, I'd probably stay with the Rocky until I got the hang of the machine, because it ain't too shoddy. I imagine once I start with a 'proper' machine though I'm going to miss the ability to dial in more finely.

Tell me where to start reading up on this stuff. I've been on coffeegeek plenty, but I find their forums infuriating.

In terms of roasting, you know the beans I like. Will it cut it with them?

 

[mrs quoad]

Sweet, flat, chocolatey, boring beans?

Yes, yes, it'll churn those out beautifully all day. The ones I've tended to struggle with've been bright, fruity and acidic.

Erm, next decent price range above the Silvia (£400, and - IMO - not really worth it) would be £600-£700... At which point you're getting into some really interesting machines. HXs and E61 and allsorts, oh my. (Though not dual boiler in that price range, I think).

tmc would be a brilliant starting point.

 

[Vintage Paw]

TMC?

 

[Fedayn]

Too Much Coffee?

 

[Vintage Paw]

Tiny Mouse Creatures?

 

[mrs quoad]

Too Much Coffee?

This!

I'm sure I've linked to it LOADS of times!

It's the UK equivalent of home-barista.com, only is - frankly - less fucking obsessive / weird / anal, and far more friendly-human.

 

[Vintage Paw]

You can type out all that and not give me a link for my laziness? Woe

*googles*

 

[mrs quoad]

You can type out all that and not give me a link for my laziness? Woe

*googles*

too much coffee . com.

:rerleyes:

Steve posts there

 

[Herbsman.]

rascists

 

[mrs quoad]

No idea of price range at the moment. I don't have the money yet, but will later. We're probably looking at no sooner than September, maybe not even before Christmas tbh.

In terms of the machine, I want something basic but a good, reliable workhorse. If it looks nice that'll be a plus, but after being stung by the sexy looks of the FF it's a case of fool me once, etc.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nuova-Simonel...14&_trkparms=72:1683|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318

*rubs thighs*