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Faith schools

Yu_Gi_Oh said:
So the Catholic teachers (which I assume there must be at your childrens school) don't believe with absolute certainty that there is a god, that jesus died for our sins, that Mary was a virgin etc? 'Cos if they don't feel sure then they really aren't Catholics and probably should get another job, and if they are sure then they do hold absolutist ideas and in my opinion absolutism is dangerous and damaging.

And also, to use Gmarthews point, why should the state (and therefore us) be paying for religions to spread their ideas?

They do teach that yeah but they also teach alongside it an awful lot about what other religions believe as well, in my childrens school they also dont teach about hell and damnation, original sin, guilt or negativity.
There is an awful lot that a religion can teach without being dangerous.I;d rather the state was involved in knowing exactly what was being taught in faith schools via their involvement and the national curriculum. A second islamic school has opened in Cardiff recently, privately funded and speaking to a parent of a child at the first school yesterday he said he wouldbt send his kid there becuase the people running it he felt were extremists who hold fundamentalist views and dangerous ones at that which they were teaching the kids. He'd welcome the states involvement in schooling for his daughter within his faith to foster greater understanding and keep some control over the content of lessons to prevent extremist views being taught.There was recemtly a programme on the beeb which raised exactly his converns yet hes a muslim. If he chooses to send his kid to a muslim school why shouldnt he expect the school be regulated and the state should be involved.

As for the state paying? I'd rather turn the argument around and say the choice of education should be as wide as possible for everyone. religious and non religious so people can choose what they want their kids taught to an extent.
I think for instance if we as a state are funding specialist dance and drama 'academies' and science 'academies' and sports 'academies then we should be funding steiner schools
Just becuase a section of the population do or dont believe in something doesnt mean it should or shouldnt be taught in a state school. particularly at the expense of other things.
 
LilMissHissyFit said:
I think for instance if we as a state are funding specialist dance and drama 'academies' and science 'academies' and sports 'academies then we should be funding steiner schools
Just becuase a section of the population do or dont believe in something doesnt mean it should or shouldnt be taught in a state school. particularly at the expense of other things.

Practical skills and empirical science are not the same order of knowledge as religious ideology.
 
Sorry. said:
Practical skills and empirical science are not the same order of knowledge as religious ideology.

Maybe not but the state is still funding a specialised education for those parents who choose it which isnt automatically open to all( apart from to apply- the same as faith schools).
I;d like to see only theoretical religion( a broad overview of what different groups believe) being taught in non denominational schools rather than parents who havent chosen it having to have their kids pray to a god they may not subscribe to but cant get away from either
 
LilMissHissyFit said:
They do teach that yeah but they also teach alongside it an awful lot about what other religions believe as well, in my childrens school they also dont teach about hell and damnation, original sin, guilt or negativity.

In my experience of being taught about other religions at school was in the context of 'some people believe this...' but it was pretty clear that we were learning about other people and that we were christians and it wasn't like we had a rotation of different faith worship in assembly or that we were encouraged to look at the similarities between religions or examine them ( our own, especially!) critically.

You are right that all schools must teach different faiths, but your childs school is only going to present Catholosism as the 'true' religion.
 
Yu_Gi_Oh said:
You are right that all schools must teach different faiths, but your childs school is only going to present Catholosism as the 'true' religion.

Ive not got that from them at all really but yeah I take your point and its valid. I still think its a choice issue too. I CHOOSE to send my kids there, they arent forced to attend.
I should have that choice as should other religions and other teaching styles and I dont believe that my choice under state education should be limited to what some people believe should be desireable( becuase their beliefs differ from mine)
 
Anyway, it's 1.15am here and I must get off the PC and go to sleep. :) Nice thrashing this out with you lilmisshissyfit.
x
Hopefully will resume tomorrow (when it's the middle of the night for you lot) if the topic hasn't eveolved too far. :)
 
At my catholic school in the west of Scotland, only catholics could be heads of department. RE lessons were all from a catholic perspective - other religions were talked about, but through this filter - and the walls of the assembly hall displayed some lovely woman-hating, anti-abortion propaganda with no counterposing view. I'm sure all you liberals love that.

Worst of all, though, was the way the divsions made worse my town's long-standing sectarian tensions. We were the taigs at the taig schools, and the proddies had their own "non-denominational" secondaries (everyone knew what a laughable term that was). In practice this meant was that the segreagation along the lines dictated by decades of anti-Irish racism were kept in place for another generation, we were encouraged to see other working class kids as "different" because of the faith they followed and I risked a hiding if I went up the town in my school tie.

The beneficiaries of course were priests and ministers who were given ample opportunity to indoctrinate the kids, and of course bigoted parents who didn't want their offspring educated alongside themmuns.
 
In Bloom said:
Calm down a bit and re-read my post, I never said that religion was "all about indocrination and dogma" (though it couldn't survive without them). All I'm saying is that I'd appreciate it if people kept their religious beliefs out of schools and in churches and their own homes, where they belong.

Why does the teaching of (for example) Arabic have to be restricted to Islamic "faith schools" anyway?
Oh, I wasn't particularly talking about you, In Bloom. I deliberately said you don't get Arabic taught in mainstream schools 'on the whole' as I'm sure there are non-religious schools now with significant Muslim pupil numbers who do have Arabic on the curriculum. But in very few cases in non-specialist schools, will you have sufficient numbers of Jewish pupils to teach Hebrew for example.

I reiterate that what I think some people fail to appreciate (quite understandably) is the amount of specific cultural practices, as regard food etc, some religions involve. Many posters here are not bought up in any religious background, or else have been bought up in the (nominally) majority religion of this country and, with all respect, I'm not sure they can fully appreciate what it is to value the cultural traditions that come from without that tradition that they have grown up in or at least familiar with. I hope that doesn't sound patronising or anything, but I've found in some threads here that it's very hard to make people understand, for example, what it is for me to be Jewish, as it doesn't seem to be quite what a lot of people think it is.
 
Cloo said:
I reiterate that what I think some people fail to appreciate (quite understandably) is the amount of specific cultural practices, as regard food etc, some religions involve. Many posters here are not bought up in any religious background, or else have been bought up in the (nominally) majority religion of this country and, with all respect, I'm not sure they can fully appreciate what it is to value the cultural traditions that come from without that tradition that they have grown up in or at least familiar with. I hope that doesn't sound patronising or anything, but I've found in some threads here that it's very hard to make people understand, for example, what it is for me to be Jewish, as it doesn't seem to be quite what a lot of people think it is.

But surely you realise there is a world of difference between saying "schools should accommodate people's traditions", which is fair enough, and "people's traditions and religions define them to the extent they can't study together."

I understand what you're sasying perfectly well, thanks.
 
Faith schools seem to me to be a fairly reliable recipie for sustaining bigotry, whatever their claimed virtues. But if Blair's US sponsored fundie nutcase bigot pals are going to get to run their own schools then it's only reasonable that us traditional British people should too.

Welcome children, to morning assembly.

Lee-Wicker-Man.jpg
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Faith schools seem to me to be a fairly reliable recipie for sustaining bigotry, whatever their claimed virtues. But if Blair's US sponsored fundie nutcase bigot pals are going to get to run their own schools then it's only reasonable that us traditional British people should too.

Welcome children, to morning assembly.

Lee-Wicker-Man.jpg

:D I love the bit when the copper walks into the school in the Wickerman :cool:
 
Yu_Gi_Oh said:
Basing the way you live your life on a bunch of ideas that turn out to not actually hold much water when you examine them at a later date and then suddenly finding that you're unsure what you actually have to live for?

A loss of faith can be a soul destroying experience and I think people who bring up their children surrounded by religion and absolutism are often setting them up for a fall.

I can only speak for Catholicism, that's how I was brought up, and I have to tell you that the ideas that you base the way you live your life on most certainly do hold water.

No-one will ever convince me that not caring for your neighbours and the wider world is a better way for people to live than trying to care, that wrong-doing can never be forgiven, that it is foolish to give without expecting to receive something in return. The principle of living as depicted in the story of Christ is not a bad way to live; peaceful, generous, inclusive.

The magical parts of catholicism are not all that important and I'm pretty sure that most people stop believing in them at the same time as they ditch the tooth fairy. A symbolic importance remains but that is a far cry from belief in mumbo-jumbo.

I really don't believe that anyone's world falls apart when they realise the Immaculate Conception really didn't happen.

Adds: our children have attended faith schools, C of E primary, Catholic secondary. We're not church-goers, the children aren't baptised, newharper wouldn't even describe himself as christian though I might. About 25% of the kids at the Catholic school are actually Catholics. Not very exclusive after all.
 
i went to a faith based school (christian brothers :eek: ) 76-83, long time ago, it was a good education academically, but i don't remember being taught about different faiths, there was a lot of religious instruction on the catholic faith, mass once a week, prayers in the morning first thing and after lunch, it was very uncritical about the catholic faith, you don't realise at the time because it's all you know, so it was indoctrination (so they thought) most of us couldn't be arsed with catholicism after about 13/14 and i'd say a lot of our parents wanted us to go there because it was a good school and not because it was faith based.....

were i to have children, i wouldn't sent them to a faith based school, ime it gave us a rather narrow view of other religions and faiths, and was non critical of such catholic no nos such as divorce, and abortion, at the time the subject of homosexuality wasn't addressed at all....
 
AnnaKarpik said:
I can only speak for Catholicism, that's how I was brought up, and I have to tell you that the ideas that you base the way you live your life on most certainly do hold water.

No-one will ever convince me that not caring for your neighbours and the wider world is a better way for people to live than trying to care, that wrong-doing can never be forgiven, that it is foolish to give without expecting to receive something in return. The principle of living as depicted in the story of Christ is not a bad way to live; peaceful, generous, inclusive.
Lets not forget the guilt, self-denial and anti-rational thinking, they're a part of Catholocism too. And personally, if I were to totally lose my mind and end up saddled with kids, I'd never send them to a school which was based on those ideas, its tatamount to abuse.
 
But surely you realise there is a world of difference between saying "schools should accommodate people's traditions", which is fair enough, and "people's traditions and religions define them to the extent they can't study together."
Of course the latter isn't true, but I uphold people's right to send their kid to a faith school if that's what they want. As I said, I'm not necessarily a fan of them, but they do have a lot to offer some people.
 
So-called 'faith' schools are different from comprehensives in a number of ways, listed below.

[The reason I put 'faith' in inverted commas is that virtually all 'faith' schools are actually christian (mostly CofE or Roman Catholic, with a tiny number of Methodist and other christian schools); there are an even tinier number, fingers of one hand, of schools belonging to a small number of other faiths - Jewish and Muslim, and virtually none for some major faiths, eg Hindu, Sikh. The actual distribution of faiths from the census is - 78% Christian, 3.2% Muslim, 1.2% Hindu, 0.7% Sikh, 0.5% Jewish, 0.3% Buddhist, 0.3% other, 16.1% no religion. England & Wales http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=984&Pos=6&ColRank=1&Rank=176
The term 'faith' schools is used as a smokescreen by the government to pretend they are covering all religions when in fact there is a huge bias in favour of christianity.]

* Governance - in a 'faith' school, the governors have to have more relationship with the particular church that the school is based on. In other words the church has strong right of influence over the governors, even though it is state-funding they are spending.

* Ownership of property - there are two types of 'faith' schools, voluntary aided and voluntary controlled. In the case of voluntary aided, the ownership of the estate is vested in the church even though it is subsidised by state funds. These schools are more difficult for LEAs and government to influence.

* Headteacher - 'faith' schools normally can specify that the headteacher must be a practising member of the church the school is linked to. Because of the large number of church primaries this makes it more difficult for primary teachers who are not active members of the CoE or RC churches to achieve headship, as they are automatically excluded from this role in nearly 1 in 3 primary schools. SSometimes this extends to other staff, eg schools run by Catholic Brotherhoods tend to be dominated by staff from that background.

* Curriculum - while all schools must follow the national curriculum and this includes the requirement to teach Religious Education with a broadly christian outlook, many non-faith secondary schools tend to ignore the requirement for daily worship. [OFSTED politely point it out in reports, usually the phrase 'The school does not meet statutory requirements for collective worship' appears in the OFSTED report and it is an action point under 'Areas for Improvement']. 'Faith' schools, ie Christian, however are much more likely to vigorously enforce this (and hence they have less for OFSTED to criticise). The 'collective act of daily worship' is often used to reinforce religious values - for example speakers in Catholic schools will often use daily worship to reinforce the church's opposition to abortion, contraception and homosexuality; alternative viewpoints are seldom if ever allowed to be put.

* Selection - this is the most pernicious difference. Most LEA 'community' schools select only on non-denominational criteria, eg distance, sibling already at school, welfare/pastoral, special need etc. 'Faith' schools can select on grounds of faith. While some only give priority to members of the church, others will only select those who are practising members of the church. In one school I know in Preston, they have progressively tightened the rules, so that it is now the vicars who are selecting, as even occasional attendance does not count, you have to actively and regularly participate in church life. This school also has a preference for evangelical rather than mainstream CofE churches. [It is a technology specialist school which does select up to 10% of pupils for aptitude following a test]

Here are the (religious) selection criteria for this school:
... preference will be given to the admission of children in the
following priority order:-
1. Children resident in the Preston Deanery who are, or who have a parent who is,
actively involved in the work and worship of a Christian church which is, or which
belongs to a denomination which is, in membership of Churches Together in
England or the Evangelical Alliance.
2. Children not resident in Preston Deanery who are, or who have a parent who is,
actively involved in the work and worship of a Christian church which is, or which
belongs to a denomination which is, in membership of Churches Together in
England or the Evangelical Alliance.
3. Children whose parents wish them to be educated at the school.... [distance being the sole criteria]

...

Where applications are made under category 1 or 2, the Governors will seek references from
the churches to which affiliation is claimed. In deciding whether to accept any application
under categories 1 or 2, the Governors will take into account the nature and degree of
commitment to the work and worship of the specified church, including such matters as the
regularity of attendance at divine worship. In the event of there being an over-subscription
in either category 1 or 2, the degree of commitment will likewise to taken into consideration
in the allocation of places.

Source: http://www.archtemple.lancsngfl.ac.uk/ under prospectus The Insert pages 4 and 5

Because the number of applicants in categories 1 and 2 is always larger than the number of places, in practice only categories 1 and 2 have been used increasingly and are now used exclusively. The definition of how active a parent is has also got tougher. For example I know of one parent, practising church goer, who has two diabetic children, the older got into the school some years ago because their church-going was considered acceptable but the younger has been refused on the grounds there church participation is not up to the standards now required (they haven't changed - only the criteria and numbers applying). The fact that the children are diabetic and need special care and attention (and would therefore benefit from being at the same school) is considered irrelevant compared to the church participation record of the parents.

This school is in a multi-cultural city where 20% or so of the (child) population are from non-christian religion, ie Muslim and Hindu. In practice this is a 'whites only' school. A state community school 1 mile away is well over half Asian because it is the only one in the neighbourhood that doesn't select on religion.

Educational Apartheid is alive and well in the North of England!
 
Our sons attend a church in wales primary because it's the closest one. Fortunately it's a very good school but I believe this is in spite of rather than because of the faith aspect.

I don't think state funds should be used to pay for faith schools. Circular 1/94, which provides a narrow interpretation of the legal requirement for broadly christian worship in all state schools, is divisive and damaging and should be revoked immediately.

I think the national curriculum should mandate that teaching morality and ethics is separated from teaching religion and that critical thinking is a compulsory lesson to at least the extent that RE is now.

The BHA has the right idea and there are some signs that things are heading in the right direction in spite of the current government's stance on this issue.
 
The school next door to my bro and his wife's place is CofE but they're hoping to send their daughter there anyway because a) it's next door and b) it's a good school. I thought you had to prove church attendence and stuff, but maybe that's just catholic schools? :confused:
 
Cloo said:
The school next door to my bro and his wife's place is CofE but they're hoping to send their daughter there anyway because a) it's next door and b) it's a good school. I thought you had to prove church attendence and stuff, but maybe that's just catholic schools? :confused:

Not if it's your local school, only if you're exercising your "right to choose" (don't get me started ;) )
 
Cloo said:
Of course the latter isn't true, but I uphold people's right to send their kid to a faith school if that's what they want..

What about my right not to see my community fractured along sectarian lines?
 
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