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Failed asylum seekers face GP ban

potential said:
or perhaps there upset when they need to see a doctor and are quoted a time two days later, so goes to A&E and has to wait for six hours to be seen ?

Where are you talking about though? Recently I can only talk about LB of Hillingdon. If I go through to NHS/Harmony for an out-of-hours GP, people have to wait four to six hours for a home visit. My local GP splits their practice between appointments and open surgery.

What I'm trying to say is. Are we talking about a general lack of healthcare provision, problems in specific areas of the UK or ones caused by immigrants?
 
becky p said:
Well Pigeon? Any chance of an answer to these questions?:(
Much as i enjoyed your rant. I am not quite sure who it was aimed at?

What "questions"? You've concluded, possibly disingenuously, that I'm arguing for unlimited economic growth and against the redistribution of resources. That's not the case.

As for the "rant", it was aimed at anyone who'll use divisive weasel words seeking to blame any disadvantaged group for the sorry state of our public services. If the cap fits and all that.
 
yield said:
. Are we talking about a general lack of healthcare provision, problems in specific areas of the UK or ones caused by immigrants?

Well, if we're talking about asylum the Border & Immigration Agency has recently been blowing its trumpet about the happy fact that asylum applications in the UK are at their lowest for 15 years. So why the situatation has apparently reached such a crisis point as justify the denial of healthcare is a mystery.
:rolleyes:
 
dylanredefined said:
Treating hiv thousands of pounds a year .
Sigining death certificate hundred pounds ? If you want to get that cruel.


And the public health implications of not treating HIV? Or TB? Or denying pregnant women access to healthcare because they're terrified of being presented with a bill for the costs of their care?
 
Pigeon said:
Well, indeed you do: but only a lunatic (or a weasel) would try to conclude that the blame for the inequitable distribution of resources can be laid at the door of bloody asylum seekers. Or that it was somehow within the sphere of human decency to deny public healthcare to the sick without the means to pay for it privately.

It's truly, truly mindboggling how keen people are to sign up to the state's self-serving fantasy that our public services would somehow be delivered efficiently and fairly if only it wasn't for the asylum seekers. Or the economic migrants. Or the welfare cheats. Or the single mothers.

All of this crap gets swallowed wholesale then spewed back up to justify the brutalisation of social policy as, inch by inch, we slip into barbarism.

A truly fucking dismal spectacle.


Trying to get through to beckyp is like
 

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Pigeon said:
Well, indeed you do: but only a lunatic (or a weasel) would try to conclude that the blame for the inequitable distribution of resources can be laid at the door of bloody asylum seekers. Or that it was somehow within the sphere of human decency to deny public healthcare to the sick without the means to pay for it privately.

It's truly, truly mindboggling how keen people are to sign up to the state's self-serving fantasy that our public services would somehow be delivered efficiently and fairly if only it wasn't for the asylum seekers. Or the economic migrants. Or the welfare cheats. Or the single mothers.

All of this crap gets swallowed wholesale then spewed back up to justify the brutalisation of social policy as, inch by inch, we slip into barbarism.

A truly fucking dismal spectacle.


Notice these hatchett jobs seem to come out when the government are in trouble themselves over allegations of fraud.

Quick! Attack the disabled! Attack the asylum seekers.

FWIW Our country could quite adequately treat both it's own citizens promptly as well as our guests if we wanted to.

How comes we can find the money for the Olympics and futile Domes but not public health. (Not to mention two dubious wars)
 
Pigeon said:
What "questions"? You've concluded, possibly disingenuously, that I'm arguing for unlimited economic growth and against the redistribution of resources. That's not the case.

As for the "rant", it was aimed at anyone who'll use divisive weasel words seeking to blame any disadvantaged group for the sorry state of our public services. If the cap fits and all that.

Sorry! But that is not an arguement, that i have put forwards, is it?

And who do you think is accusing a disadvantaged group for the sorry state of our public services. tbh I think it is the governments responsibility.
Just so you know and don't get me mixed up with the strawman.;)
 
Blagsta said:
Using arguments against economic growth as an excuse not to provide decent healthcare is one if the nuttiest arguments I've seen for a while. You're not one of the RCP/LM lot are you?

That really is quite a bizarre post.
Is it aimed at me? Is that what you think i'm saying?:eek:
 
It seems to be what you're saying. If it isn't, could you please clarify what you are saying?
 
Blagsta said:
It seems to be what you're saying. If it isn't, could you please clarify what you are saying?
How?
I am not arguing against economic growth per se. I am not arguing either against decent universal health care!
I am simply questioning just how much universal health care should be concentrated in one small area.
Arguing for more resources is one thing, but how should these resources be allocated? Perhaps you think that it doesn't matter?:confused:
 
I still don't understand what you're trying to say. You appear to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that there aren't enough resources to treat everyone fairly. Well that's a crock IMO. As someone pointed out earlier, we have enough resources to bail out Northern Rock, so making out that there aren't enough for the NHS is way off beam.

If that's not what you're saying, then what are you saying?
 
The healthcare system is full to the brim and fucked up because of the stupid conditions that the government are putting on GP Practices, look whats happening to dental surgeries now. The nhs dental care is crap, everyone is forced to go abroad for good cheap dentistry or put up with sub standard nhs dentistry.... and Gp's are not far behind, some people are going abroad to get kidney's ffs, because the waiting lists are so long!!!!!!

fuck all to do with immigrants ffs
 
_angel_ said:
Notice these hatchett jobs seem to come out when the government are in trouble themselves over allegations of fraud.

Quick! Attack the disabled! Attack the asylum seekers.

FWIW Our country could quite adequately treat both it's own citizens promptly as well as our guests if we wanted to.

How comes we can find the money for the Olympics and futile Domes but not public health. (Not to mention two dubious wars)

Yup noticed that as well.

BTW FWIW you could have a REALLY effective Asylum system in the UK if only resources were put into investigating peoples claims properly. The current system is a shambles and damages the asylum seeker and let in people who shouldn't be here (dodgy claims and / or a person not condusive to the public good) and turns away people who should be allowed in because they are fleeing persecution.

This lack of efficiency in practice causes trust to be lost in the effectiveness of the asylum system on thepart of indigenous (of what ever race creed or whatever) people and is a factor in the rise of fash parties.

Make the system credible and fair and you could reduce the sort of anger that is building up in a lot of areas. Of course what is required is resources in to healthcare and this must be a given if the asylum system is to be reformed.

A double whammy of increased service resources and a more effective asylum system and publicity about WHY people seek asylum would go a long way to removing the poison of the fash.
 
Blagsta said:
I still don't understand what you're trying to say. You appear to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that there aren't enough resources to treat everyone fairly. Well that's a crock IMO. As someone pointed out earlier, we have enough resources to bail out Northern Rock, so making out that there aren't enough for the NHS is way off beam.

If that's not what you're saying, then what are you saying?

Clearly there is not presently enough in the nhs pot for everyone to get the treatment they might need or want, when they want it.
Unless of course you think that the money could be better spent.
Decisions are made in the health service every second of every day about who should be a priority for care.
The people making these decisions are faced with dilemnas every day. They have to make difficult judgements every day.
Even given the increases in spending on the nhs, some people are still going private.
The NHS can not possibly afford to treat all of the people from around the world who might like to use it.
To pretend that it can or should is less than honest.:(
 
Maybe countries should work on the principle of "reciprocity".

If a UK citizen goes to country X and gets looked after for free if he is ill, then we do likewise for citizens of country X.

If, however, country X take the view that "foreigners can pay up or fuck off and die", then we should be as harsh.

This would encourage governments around the world to be nice to foreigners, hopefully.

The same could be applied to other stuff as well.

Like, if I moved to country X with my kids and wanted to send them to the local schools, could I do so for free? Or not? Etc.

Giles..
 
becky p said:
Clearly there is not presently enough in the nhs pot for everyone to get the treatment they might need or want, when they want it.
Unless of course you think that the money could be better spent.
Decisions are made in the health service every second of every day about who should be a priority for care.
The people making these decisions are faced with dilemnas every day. They have to make difficult judgements every day.
Even given the increases in spending on the nhs, some people are still going private.
The NHS can not possibly afford to treat all of the people from around the world who might like to use it.
To pretend that it can or should is less than honest.:(

The decision to deny NHS Treatment to refused asylum seekers hasn't been made by anyone within the NHS: it's been made by the Home Office, as a part of its strategy to ensure and enforce compliance with "our immigration rules" and as a disincentive to people making claims here in the first place.

Just so you're clear what we're all talking about and don't mix us up with straw men.;)
 
becky p said:
Clearly there is not presently enough in the nhs pot for everyone to get the treatment they might need or want, when they want it.
Unless of course you think that the money could be better spent.
Decisions are made in the health service every second of every day about who should be a priority for care.
The people making these decisions are faced with dilemnas every day. They have to make difficult judgements every day.
Even given the increases in spending on the nhs, some people are still going private.
The NHS can not possibly afford to treat all of the people from around the world who might like to use it.
To pretend that it can or should is less than honest.:(

No one is proposing that the NHS treat "all of the people from around the world who might like to use it". :confused: What has this to do with your previous post about economic growth?

What is your point? Do you know?
 
Giles said:
Maybe countries should work on the principle of "reciprocity".

If a UK citizen goes to country X and gets looked after for free if he is ill, then we do likewise for citizens of country X.

If, however, country X take the view that "foreigners can pay up or fuck off and die", then we should be as harsh.

So the UK should base its healthcare admissions policy on, say, Robert Mugabe's?:rolleyes:
 
nino_savatte said:
I see beckyp's got her usual sloppy grip on the issue. What's this about "economic growth"? :confused:

In precis: It's bad. Or not. And someone should do something about it. Or something.
 
Pigeon said:
And the public health implications of not treating HIV? Or TB? Or denying pregnant women access to healthcare because they're terrified of being presented with a bill for the costs of their care?
That comes out of a diffrent budget so its some body elses problem .:(
I'd guess I'd make a big noise about not treating immigrants and then treat those who need it .Even if we stop benefits healthcare etc .Still less chance of dying in london than any country they chosen to flee from .
Guess we have to do the humane thing while appeasing the daily hate types .
 
Pigeon said:
The decision to deny NHS Treatment to refused asylum seekers hasn't been made by anyone within the NHS: it's been made by the Home Office, as a part of its strategy to ensure and enforce compliance with "our immigration rules" and as a disincentive to people making claims here in the first place.

I think it's got to be at least worth having an effort for Unison health activists and others to get a bit of a campaign going for nurses and doctors to not refuse treatment on the basis of immigration status.

Don't know the practicalities of it though. May be this article is useful?

http://jme.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/31/3/125
Statement by Dr Richard Ashcroft:
When denial of medical treatment is being used as a lever to drive people out of the country, ethicists and health care professionals should speak out… It is shaming to live in a country which mistreats migrants in these ways.
 
Full article text
EDITORIAL
Standing up for the medical rights of asylum seekers
Standing up for the medical rights of asylum seekers
Richard E Ashcroft
Correspondence to:
R E Ashcroft
Imperial College London, Medical Ethics Unit, Reynolds Building, St Dunstan’s Road, London W6 8RP; [email protected]
________________________________________
When denial of medical treatment is being used as a lever to move people out of the country, ethicists and healthcare professionals should speak out.
________________________________________
Keywords: asylum seekers; medical ethics; public policy
An ugly feature of political life throughout the Western world, and beyond, is the suspicion towards, and maltreatment of, migrants from poor to rich countries. People who would otherwise be horrified at being labelled racist nevertheless find it acceptable to support practices which can range from stigmatisation (for instance through requiring failed asylum seekers to pay for basic necessities not with money but with vouchers) to confinement in brutalising conditions in "reception" and "removal" centres.1–5
An hour spent searching through government and NGO websites concerned with the treatment of asylum seekers and refugees in developed world countries is an hour well spent – but profoundly depressing. This is not only because of the frankly Orwellian language used by the governments of the UK and Australia (for instance), or because of the conditions and treatment meted out, but also because of the apparent support these practices have among the voting public. In the pointedly optimistic reports of Her Majesty’s Inspector of Prisons, for example, one can find praise for the fact that at one removal centre "routine strip searches" have now stopped, alongside recognition that accommodation conditions were "simply unacceptable" (HMIP Report on IRC Haslar, p 5)3 Yet the UK government’s "Myth Busting Leaflet" is exclusively concerned with the worries of those who think asylum seekers are being treated too well: assuring citizens that adult asylum seekers are given less benefits than permanent residents, and do not receive better housing or material goods.6 Similarly, in Australia, the current government has consistently made political capital from being seen to be "tough" on asylum seekers.4,7
The issue of migration between countries has been politically contentious now for many years in most developed countries, as they have been forced to confront the legacy of the conditions under which they became developed, and the dramatic inequalities in wealth between developed and underdeveloped countries. Some have argued that for a variety of reasons, including economic growth, restorative justice, and difficulties in consistently holding both that liberal democracy is the only morally legitimate form of government and that barriers on immigration are justifiable, we should abandon our current restrictions on free movement between countries.8,9 Yet even if, on mature reflection, one does not share this position, it is shaming to live in a country which not only mistreats migrants in these ways, but even sees political parties appeal for votes on the basis that the public actively support them in doing so.
The treatment of asylum seekers is a medical ethical issue. Firstly, the conditions of detention of some asylum seekers, especially those whose application for asylum has been refused, are not only distressing to us, they can induce or worsen pre-existing psychiatric disorders in them.10,11 Secondly, not only do doctors with care of asylum seekers have a responsibility to do the best they can for their patients, they also have responsibilities to ensure that detainees in reception and removal centres, and asylum seekers in the community, have proper access to the health care they need, and to speak out about the conditions which worsen their patients’ health, and the public health implications of inadequate or inhumane treatment.5,12 Thirdly, the social and ethical issues relating to the treatment of asylum seekers are issues which have a resonance with general issues about the human right to health, and the economic and social right to healthcare.13,14
The UK government has recently "tightened up" the rules regarding access to free treatment on the National Health Service by overseas visitors, including asylum seekers and illegal immigrants. From April 1st 2004, asylum seekers whose application has been refused and for whom all appeals have been exhausted are to be charged for all non-emergency care, with some specified exceptions concerning compulsory psychiatric treatment and a list of infectious diseases (not including HIV).15 Since they are not permitted to work, and may be receiving no other benefits, it is hard to see how this is possible.16 Although this has been official policy so far as hospital care is concerned since 1989, it has been applied only haphazardly. While the extension of this policy to primary care is currently merely under consultation, the extended guidelines are already in place, and with some fanfare the government has announced its intention to apply this policy rigorously even before this consultation.17,18 Laughably, the official guidance to NHS Trusts states that to avoid claims of race discrimination, everyone should be asked the same questions about where they have lived for the past 12 months, and whether they can show the right to live here.19 It is more important to appear non-discriminatory than actually to be non-discriminatory. More seriously still, doctors are being put into the position of having to decide whether or not to treat a patient, not on medical grounds, but on the grounds of whether the patient has the right papers and or the right illness.20
Critics of laxity asylum rules will argue that all this is as it should be. Yet when denial of medical treatment, even to people with genuine medical need, is being used as a lever to move people out of the country, ethicists and healthcare professionals should speak out. Systems which ensure poor quality or denial of service to one vulnerable group, merely pour encourager les autres, diminish and threaten us all.

FOOTNOTES
This editorial was written while the author was a Visiting Fellow at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics, University of Melbourne. The visit was funded by an Australian Bicentennial Fellowship.
 
Having said that what is really needed I think is a campaign of people organising in solidarity with migrants- migrants and others self-organising with health workers where possible to defy this law, not just out of solidarity and humanity but out of self-interest.

Capital uses immigrant labour and uses racism to divide and segment the resistance to its rule. It is old fashioned divide and rule. we need a united response not out of pity but out of solidarity and the sense to realise attacking one section of the workforce or community is part of an attack on us all.
 
Pigeon said:
The decision to deny NHS Treatment to refused asylum seekers hasn't been made by anyone within the NHS: it's been made by the Home Office, as a part of its strategy to ensure and enforce compliance with "our immigration rules" and as a disincentive to people making claims here in the first place.

Just so you're clear what we're all talking about and don't mix us up with straw men.;)

Have I said that the decision to refuse asylum seekers has been made by anyone in the NHS?:D

Just so we can all be clear about straw men.:cool:
 
Blagsta said:
No one is proposing that the NHS treat "all of the people from around the world who might like to use it". :confused: What has this to do with your previous post about economic growth?

What is your point? Do you know?

So you don't think that everyone from round the world should have access to NHS treatment?
Why not?
And who do you think should be denied treatment on the NHS?:confused:
 
becky p said:
Have I said that the decision to refuse asylum seekers has been made by anyone in the NHS?:D

Just so we can all be clear about straw men.:cool:

I wouldn't fancy haveing to be the poorly paid nhs receptionist turning away some sick kid from treatment because the government has decided to 'get tough'.
 
Giles said:
Maybe countries should work on the principle of "reciprocity".

If a UK citizen goes to country X and gets looked after for free if he is ill, then we do likewise for citizens of country X.

If, however, country X take the view that "foreigners can pay up or fuck off and die", then we should be as harsh.

This would encourage governments around the world to be nice to foreigners, hopefully.

The same could be applied to other stuff as well.

Like, if I moved to country X with my kids and wanted to send them to the local schools, could I do so for free? Or not? Etc.

Giles..
How far does this reciprocity go? When we poach a doctor from Asia or a nurse from the Caribbean or a plumber from Eastern Europe, do we have to send someone trained at our own expense back? When we pay less than a fair price for our imports, do we have to sell our exports at an equally exploitative price?

Is this reciprocity thing gonna be retrospective? Do we have to make full reparations for slavery and colonialism and the devastating economic and political impact we've had on the rest of the world, or do you think we can cross our fingers and hope they'll quietly forget about that one?

Seeing as we're apparently so impoverished that we can't even provide basic healthcare to everyone with a legal right to reside here*, perhaps we should extend the principal of reciprocity to population control. We've helped kill millions just in the last couple of decades. In Iraq ~10% of the population have been murdered with our assistance in the last 16 years. Perhaps people who are desperate to escape the wars and economic devastation we created should simply be required to help kill off a few million of our own residents to reduce the burden on the poor l'il taxpayer?

Nice idea, but it'll never fly with the voters. You got the right idea - better to make sure we only demand reciprocity on the kinds of things that only other rich countries can provide. Reciprocity isn't discrimination, after all. And simplistic bollocks is easy to spin. Congratulations - have a seat in the Cabinet!


*note to becky: if you read that really carefully, that's not actually everyone in the world :rolleyes:
 
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