F1 2017

Discussion in 'general sports' started by spitfire, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. Limejuice

    Limejuice Well-Known Member

    I think I know where Toto is coming from. The history of US media meddling in sport is a salutary lesson. The dismal shambles that is American Football is a case in point.

    If true to form, Liberty will increasingly confuse "fans" with "customers" then confuse "customers" with "audience figures". It's the latter that drives their income. Accordingly, they will amplify the pizazz (the Buffer factor) to appeal to the biggest possible audience regardless of their attachment to motor-sport in general and F1 in particular.

    Then there's the likelihood of manipulating the game's rules and laws. In American Football, it was TV networks who persuaded the sport to move from two halves to four quarters and to allow each side to call time-outs. This boosted the advertising opportunities and added the illusion of tension towards the end of the game. (A recent study analysed a season of matches. The game technically lasts a timed hour. Average duration of a televised game - 3 hours and 20 minutes. Average amount of time with the ball actually in play - 11 minutes. Average number of adverts and messages - 200 to 250. And they wonder why viewing figures have fallen off a cliff.)

    Perhaps an online vote for a safety car if things get too boring? A pop singer's set at half time? Allow teams to call their own red flags?

    The drive for ever-increasing numbers forces owners to "sweat the asset" - make it work harder. Already Liberty are talking about 25 GPs a year. That's one a fortnight all year round. Teams know they can't possibly staff that. They already accept an enforced summer shut-down to stop teams overworking their people, and they have repeatedly said that 21 GPs was the absolute limit they could attend.

    Toto and Ferrari might be foreshadowing the future clash of interests between Liberty and the teams. Bernie, for all his faults, was a racing guy. Chase is TV man to the tips of his succulently waxed moustaches. Liberty pays lip-service to its passion for sport, but really it is addicted to numbers, like any other corporation. It's paid a lot of money for FOM and it wants to see bigger numbers as well as optimistic reports to Wall Street every quarter.

    It doesn't do F1 any harm for Mercedes and Ferrari to remind the owners that they own precisely one asset - a concorde agreement - and the loss of the two biggest racing brands would diminish its value, not fatally, but substantially. It's always open for teams to pick up their ball and find another pitch to play on. After all, the whole F1 circus came about when Bernie said he could organise a better game. The template is there. All we're missing is Bernie II - The Sequel.

    And just to lower the tone, I hope that "Alfa Romeo Sauber" will be abbreviated to ARS, which will please me unaccountably.

    Badgers and 1%er like this.
  2. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

    I would pick you up on one point and that is what Liberty Media own, they own the TV rights to F1, the concorde agreement is just a legal agreement between the teams, the FIA and FOM which dictates the terms by which the teams compete in races and how the television revenues and prize money is divided. Other than that I tend to agree with you.

    How funny would it be of Bernie, Mercedes and Ferrari decided to start a new racing formula? I could see some of the other teams joining, Liberty Media could have brought the biggest pig in a poke ever :)

    I think Mercedes and Ferrari are more concerned about the budget cap than the new engine.
    Badgers and Limejuice like this.
  3. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

    Some end of season rumors doing the rounds
    It seems there was a meeting between the 4 engine manufactures on the Saturday over the Abu Dhabi race weekend, where they talked about how to stop Liberty Media implementing there new engine plans and a budget cap. Word is that they have decided to tell Liberty that they will start their own series if they don't like what Liberty comes up with. As all fans will know they tried this in the past and it didn't work then and it will not work now. It is the FIA that decides which series is the world championship and if there are not enough teams in F1 for that they would just switch it to F2. The manufactures know full well they just can't walk away and start their own series, so such threats are pointless. It is clearly just a way of trying to get some concessions from Liberty and they would be far better off just concentrating on getting the best deal.

    New players in the ICE race
    Aston Martin appear to be serious about becoming an engine supplier and have employed a couple of top names to get them started, but all may not be as it seems. Aston Martin boss Andy Palmer has been pitting himself about a great deal over the last few races, telling anyone who will listen "it is all dependent on engine rules and budget plans if we join F1". He has set up a design group for an F1 engine under Luca Marmorini, who designed the original Ferrari V6 engines back in 2014. He is working with German Joerg Ross, who is the head of powertrain at Aston Martin Lagonda, having joined the firm from Maserati in August. But there has been talk of a consortium involving Red Bull Racing, McLaren, Aston Martin and Cosworth coming to gether, if the rules and budget cap work for them. The theory is that each of the partners in the consortium would invest in the technology developed and would each get their own engines, allowing Red Bull to have Aston Martins, McLaren to have its own F1 V6 and Cosworth to have an engine that could be supplied to any team who wants it. The ICE would be almost the same but the other things that make the car go fast could be designed in-house by each company, such as the software, energy recovery etc.

    List of new venues
    This just keeps getting bigger and bigger and is now too long to list. It seems that Tunisia has now joined this list. Other than Antarctica, Africa is the only continent that doesn't hold an F1 race and is a market that I'm sure Liberty Media would like to enter. Logistically it would be an easy option for F1 because of its location just across the Mediterranean Sea. I"m not sure we will see a race there in the next couple of years because of the political situation and the attack in the city of Sousse back in 2015. The list of venues for a 2nd race in the USA is also getting longer with Miami now on the table along with New York, Las Vegas and California
    spitfire likes this.
  4. Ax^

    Ax^ Silly Rabbit

    once it goes behind pay wall the sport is dead
    Badgers likes this.
  5. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

    Sauber announce driver line-up
    Sauber is keeping Marcus Ericsson and has signed young Ferrari driver Charles Leclerc. Of the two drivers from this season it was always going to be Ericsson if Ferrari put one of their young drivers in, as Ericsson has the backing/sponsorship of the new team owners. From results, it is clear that Wehrlein was the better driver, despite missing the first couple of races through injury he outscored Ericsson in qualifying by 11 to 7, he finished ahead of his team mate 7 to 4 and scored all the 5 points the team got. Ferrari reserve Antonio Giovinazzi will also take the job as Sauber back-up driver.

    So it is just Williams left to decide on their 2nd driver.
  6. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

    Could Maserati become the Haas team title sponsor
    There are a number of stories in the Italian press claiming that Maserati are to become Haas title sponsor in 2018. This is a very interesting story as it may have a bigger effect on F1 when looked at more deeply. It is reported that Marchionne (CEO of Ferrari and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles the parent company of both Alfa Romeo and Maserati) has suggested that a deal between Haas and Maserati could be in the pipeline. He is quoted in the press as answering, when asked about the story "Is it possible for the Haas arrangement to turn into something other than what we have today? The answer is potentially ‘yes’. But we’re very far away from a resolution on that matter, but it’s possible. We’ll see, time will tell". The reports claim that next season Haas will carry the Logo of Maserati on their car, but will still have a Ferrari branded engine.

    Haas is an independent team and has been self-funding, but the deal is reported to be worth 20m Euros a year for Haas and could also include a reduction in power-unit price. This is how the Sauber deal started, they carried the Alfa Romeo logo on their cars and now they will be running with Alfa Romeo branded engines.

    The politics behind the deal; The timing of the deal with Sauber and Haas is very interesting indeed. It is clear that with the Sauber deal Ferrari have gained some power in team decisions, they have forced out Saubers best driver and replaced him with Charles Leclerc a young Ferrari driver. It also gives Ferrari a second team voice in the up-coming Concorde negotiations, as their money in Sauber gives them some leverage over how that team votes. Are they also looking to have influence over Haas as well? Will the deal mean that Haas not only takes money for sponsorship from Maserati on the Haas cars but will it also move forward in the same way Sauber has by running a Maserati engine in 2019/20.

    While it appears at the moment that Haas doesn't need the money as it has been able to run independently and just buys in it engine, Marchionne isn't running a charity, he is running a massive car company and the oldest team in F1. At the very least he would want to be able to place a young Ferrari driver in the team at some point and with Ferrari at loggerheads with Liberty Media over the way forward, having a 3rd voice supporting him in up-coming negotiations over any new engine rules and the budget cap would be very useful.

    All change at Honda
    Honda have made some very big changes in their F1 division. Out goes the boss Yusuke Hasegawa, he will be taking up a roll in R&D with Honda and their road car division. In comes Toyoharu Tanabe, a name some F1 fans will know. He was Jenson Button's engineer when Honda were last in F1 back in 2006/7, he is to become technical director of the Honda F1 power-unit section and is expected to travel with Toro Rosso during the 2018 season. The new Boss of Honda F1 will be Yasuaki Asaki whose role is to head development at Honda's F1 base in Sakura. Separating the the two roles of technical director and development direct could be a good thing and follows the way most F1 teams work.

    Team Bosses reveal their top ten drivers of 2017
    In what has become an end-of-season tradition, all 10 F1 teams’ bosses have been asked to rank their top 10 drivers, based on on-track performances over the course of this season’s 20 races. Points are awarded using F1’s scoring system (25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1) to generate an overall winner. Votes are kept secret to ensure team bosses are willing to take part and can give their honest opinion of drivers up and down the grid.

    Top 10 drivers
    Pos. Driver Team Pts. 2017/2016
    1 [​IMG] Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 233 No change
    2 [​IMG] Max Verstappen Red Bull 143 No change
    3 [​IMG] Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 141 Up two
    4 [​IMG] Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull 112 No change
    5 [​IMG] Esteban Ocon Force India 73 New entry
    6 [​IMG] Fernando Alonso McLaren 65 No change
    =7 [​IMG] Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 49 No change
    =7 [​IMG] Carlos Sainz STR/Renault 49 Up two
    9 [​IMG] Nico Hulkenberg Renault 47 New entry
    10 [​IMG] Valtteri Bottas Mercedes 39 Down one

    Who voted
    Toto Wolff Mercedes, Maurizio Arrivabene Ferrari, Christian Horner Red Bull, Vijay Mallya Force India, Claire Williams Williams, Cyril Abiteboul Renault, Franz Tost Toro Rosso, Gunther Steiner Haas, Eric Boullier McLaren, Fred Vasseur Sauber.

    Rule changes and tweaks for 2018
    Because of the confusion at a number of races last season, which meant that the grid was often not decided until a couple of hours before the race start and with the teams down to just 3 power-units for 2018 which could lead to more penalties, the FIA have announced a change to the grid penalty system. The change amounts to this; any driver who incurs a penalty exceeding 15 grid places will be required to start the race from the back of the grid. If more than one driver receives such a penalty they will be arranged at the back of the grid in the order in which the offences were committed.

    Other changes announced for 2018 are as follows;
    • Regulations relating to procedures for starting or resuming a race behind the safety car.
    • Changing the event timetable to increase flexibility.
    • Ensuring that testing of previous cars may only take place on tracks currently holding an FIA Grade 1 or 1T licence.
    • Provision for demonstration events in previous cars which does not constitute testing. No such demonstrations may exceed 50km in length and only tyres manufactured specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier may be used.
    • Changes to ensure that oil cannot be used as fuel.
    • Introduction of a detailed specification for oil.
    • A minimum weight and volume for energy storage (batteries).
    • Changes to position of cameras and wing mirrors to accommodate the Halo.
  7. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

    Robert Kubica out of the running for Williams seat
    If media reports are to be believed
    , it seems that Kubica is no longer in the running for the last remaining F1 seat for 2018, reports from Poland to Brazil are claiming this as fact and that the front runner is now the reserve Renault driver from Russian Sergey Sirotkin. The reports are also claiming that Paul di Resta is also out of the running and if Williams can't agree teams with Sirotkin that Daniil Kvyat is their plan B.

    Williams have insisted throughout the process that its decision on the driver to partner Lance Stroll next season will be based on performance alone, if this is really the case then based on pure performance the data suggests Sirotkin is the stronger candidate. I don't really buy into this "pure performance" stuff, Williams are a team that needs a bigger budget and Sirotkin is backed by Boris Rotenberg who controls the SMP Bank and founded Russia’s SMP Racing.

    I'm not sure if or how US sanctions will effect the deal as while Boris and his brother Arkady are named on the US sanctions list, only Arkady is named on the EU sanction list as Boris now has Finnish citizenship, but the SMP Bank is also named. This could cause problems for Williams with Liberty Media, as they are a listed company in the USA. Also it is unclear how Martini will view Williams taking on a 22 year old as it is believed they have a contract with the team that says one driver must be over 25.

    Will Mercedes sign Lorenzo Sassi

    It looks like Mercedes are going to sign up ex-Ferrari chief engineer of the power-unit division Lorenzo Sassi. Those who follow this thread and F1 news will know he was fired on the direct orders of Ferrari boss Sergio Marchionne back in July. It seemed at the time a very strange decision as Ferrari were 14 points ahead of Mercedes in the World Championship standings and their power-unit had shown a great deal of improvement.

    If he is signed up by Mercedes he will be joining 2 other ex-Ferrari "top table" staff as Mercedes have already signed James Allison and designer Aldo Costa who both left Ferrari under a cloud. Sassi could be a very important addition to Mercedes as he is the best person to help explain how Ferrari gained so much extra pace last season.

    Vijay Mallya's defence against extradition

    It seems that Mallya's lawyers are claiming he cannot get a fair trial in India because "some Supreme Court judges in India ruled in favour of the government of India to win government posts after retirement" and because of trial by media. If that is his defence it will be interesting to see how English Judges view these comments. My understand is that Indian Law is very much based on British law having been part of the empire.
    Limejuice and Badgers like this.
  8. Limejuice

    Limejuice Well-Known Member

    I never really expected Robert Kubica to be fully fit enough, but it was great to see him give it his best shot. And if Paul di Resta were a strong candidate, we'd have heard much more positive comments from the paddock.

    To be honest, if Martini can't use a 22-year-old, they're idiots. I would have thought a brand like that would want an association with a younger generation. Is it a legal thing? A problem for TV coverage?

    (I seem to remember a while back when the Wales rugby team were up against France, their shirt sponsors were the brewers, Brains. French TV doesn't allow booze sponsorship, so the lads took to the field in shirts with the slogan "Not brawn", which was a top-drawer solution IMO.)

    1%er likes this.
  9. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

    I agree with you about Kubica and I'd be very surprised if he got the 2nd seat at Williams now (although he was the front runner for a long time in much of the media). There are a number of reasons that it would be good for Williams but I don't think they are about racing, I think there are better options out there for the team in the driver market and with more sponsorship money.

    As far as Martini is concerned, I believe it has to do with the legal drinking age in some of the countries F1 visits. You may recall Lance Stroll didn't have any Martini branding on his team kit at the race in Japan, that was because the legal age to drink alcohol there is 20, also I believe in Texas it is 21 and I'm sure there are other examples. So I'm guessing having both drivers under the legal drinking age could be a sponsorship nightmare at some tracks. There are mixed messages coming from Williams about the driver age clause, Paddy Lowe seemed to confirm it during an interview while other team personal have said there is no such clause, but Martini have also made comments in the media about the age of the demographic they are aiming at. I'd be surprised if Martini forced the issue as the branding on the car is there, its just on the drivers kit that some places don't like it.

    Word is that Williams will announce there 2nd driver on Friday, so we don't have long to wait :)
    Limejuice likes this.
  10. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

    You couldn't male it up
    Vijay Mallya's defence lawyer having argued earlier this week that he shouldn't be extradited to India because "some Supreme Court judges in India ruled in favour of the government of India to win government posts after retirement" are now claiming that he shouldn't be extradited because conditions would be "far from satisfactory" for him, because "jails in India are over-crowded with poor hygiene".

    When questioned by the CPS about this "unusual" evidence, it turns out this example is a "second-hand narration of an anonymous prisoner's account of an Indian jail on the other side of India". Anyone who has followed this case will understand that Mallya has fucked over thousands of his employees, stealing their pensions and not paying them for work they have done, fraudulently taken millions from banks, in the full knowledge he would not be able to repay the loans, while living the lifestyle of a millionaire across the globe. Fuck him, I hope he gets banged up for 20 years.

    Grid girls
    It is a story? Will you miss them? I don't even notice them myself (except they are shown lining the walkway when drivers are making their way to the podium). I heard from a "grid girl" on the radio today, she said she doesn't feel exploited, it looks very good on her CV (and she believes it has got her other work) and she will miss the money.
  11. cybershot

    cybershot Well-Known Member

    Of course she'll miss the money, it's easy work. Personally think they are outdated and as you say no one notices them from a tv standpoint.

    I'd say there's a relative amount of H&S involved, but then again, they let anyone on the grid these days, so let kids, competition winners or what not do it. It's all about sponsors anyway, so if the sponsors do the competitions, it's a gold mine for them, and surely worth more to them to do it that way rather than giving the job to some woman because she looks good in Lycra.
  12. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

    Williams: No driver news before January
    Having announced they would name their 2nd driver on Friday 15 Dec, Williams have now said they want to delay the announcement until some time in January. News reports are claiming that Russian Sergey Sirotkin appears favorite to take the roll, with Robert Kubica and Daniil Kvyat also being in the frame. Williams is the only remaining seat available with Sauber having confirmed Charles Leclerc will race alongside Ericsson.

    The delay indicates to me that one of two situations is going on at the top of Williams, the first is that there is a split among the management of the team as to who would be the best driver/fit for the team, the second is that the team is still trying to get more money from the drivers sponsors and backers for the seat. They can't be looking for more data as there isn't a chance of anymore testing before the end of January, testing starts for 2018 on February 26 to March 1.

    2018 F1 thread
    With the delay in Williams in naming they driver for 2018 I think maybe we should start next seasons thread without waiting for their announcement as much of the news from now will be about the 2018 season. I'm happy to start a thread next week but if someone has time over the weekend maybe they could start it. For easy reference to dates and team information it would be helpful if the thread starts in the same way the 2016 and 17 thread started, with the calendar, team line-up and other useful info, so anyone wanting to look this up just needs to go the the first couple of posts.

    See you over at the 2018 thread :)
    spitfire and Badgers like this.
  13. 1%er

    1%er Well-Known Member

  14. Limejuice

    Limejuice Well-Known Member

    Ah, excellent. The new season thread.

    It's like putting on a nice, warm, freshly-laundered pair of undercrackers...

    What, too much detail..?
    Badgers and 1%er like this.

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