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Extinction Rebellion

redcogs

in the gutter beholding the stars
Does anyone know how long the arrestees can be kept in the cells?

Conspiracy seems an open ended type reason for arrest.
 

redcogs

in the gutter beholding the stars
Remember the Shrewsbury pickets were slammed up in 1972 for conspiring to 'intimidate' their way to a £1:00 an hour minimum wage.

Naive Roger has stated ER's serious intention of overthrowing the Carbon economy and capitalism. On that basis he might have a long white beard when he finally sees the light of day.
 

Red Sky

It was like that when I got here.
Poor old Roger, it's a bit of a shame XR catastrophically alienated all the relevant activist groups and firms while refusing to build up its own court support networks really, he might've been a bit better off now if they hadn't done that.
He'll be fine. You overestimate your own importance.

XR does have it's own court support networks.
 

redcogs

in the gutter beholding the stars
Poor old Roger, it's a bit of a shame XR catastrophically alienated all the relevant activist groups and firms while refusing to build up its own court support networks really, he might've been a bit better off now if they hadn't done that.
As a wide eyed unsophisticate myself i know not of what you refer to? How would a gullible hippy alienate anyone?
 

Rob Ray

Irony is well sad
He'll be fine. You overestimate your own importance.

XR does have it's own court support networks.
I'm not important at all. Bindmans and ITN on the other hand are. And I'm well aware of what XR laughably calls its "support networks", such as that How To they put out which suggested prison can be quite fun actually and the guards are mostly black.
 

SpookyFrank

Self-cleaning oven, the whole bit.
Does anyone know how long the arrestees can be kept in the cells?

Conspiracy seems an open ended type reason for arrest.
Unless held on suspicion of terrorist offences (an increasingly broad category that has been stretched to include certain forms of peaceful protest) or conspiracy to commit same a person can only be held without charge for 24 hours. Once charged you will either be released with or without bail conditions or remanded in custody.
 

Red Sky

It was like that when I got here.
I'm not important at all. Bindmans and ITN on the other hand are. And I'm well aware of what XR laughably calls its "support networks", such as that How To they put out which suggested prison can be quite fun actually and the guards are mostly black.
Bindmans are a commercial operation and will (and are) representing Extinction Rebellion defendants. Not sure who ITN are in this context.

The prison guide you are referring to was withdrawn months ago. Nobody is entirely clear as to who authored it.

What has been set up are regional arrestee support groups to help people through the arrest and court process. They've been quite effective at police station and court support.
 

SpookyFrank

Self-cleaning oven, the whole bit.
He'll be fine. You overestimate your own importance.

XR does have it's own court support networks.
The Green and Black Cross statement on why they're no longer supporting XR, which includes an excoriation of XR's in house legal advice, is worth reading. The crux of it is that XR are either deliberately getting their activists in more trouble than necessary (for example by publicising police conditions on protests so that nobody can say in their defence that they were unaware of them) or they're just shit-eatingly stupid.
 

redcogs

in the gutter beholding the stars
Unless held on suspicion of terrorist offences (an increasingly broad category that has been stretched to include certain forms of peaceful protest) or conspiracy to commit same a person can only be held without charge for 24 hours. Once charged you will either be released with or without bail conditions or remanded in custody.
Thank you SpookyFrank.
 

Rob Ray

Irony is well sad
As a wide eyed unsophisticate myself i know not of what you refer to? How would a gullible hippy alienate anyone?
That was a wider XR thing, essentially they alienated the lawyers by giving shit legal advice, pissed off ACAB by doing one training session on legal observing then bringing out their own version with massive errors, and temporarily collapsed GBC by assuming it was some sort of service that could deal with the fallout of hundreds of people getting arrested out of the blue. I had a chat with one of their self-described "unarrestables" a wee while back (people who regard themselves as core organisers - he seriously referred to himself as a "sort of general"), and the man was talking about leading legal support workshops after one intro day with ACAB while not knowing the names of the relevant legal firms, let along the intricacies of protest policing and rights more generally. Bonkers.

Edit: Oh yeah a friend of mine who was involved in a local group setup process told me about the regional networks, which essentially has consisted of the core XR team telling local groups "you're on your own, good luck". She was less than impressed, though yes, I'm sure some of them will be working pretty hard.
 

Red Sky

It was like that when I got here.
The Green and Black Cross statement on why they're no longer supporting XR, which includes an excoriation of XR's in house legal advice, is worth reading. The crux of it is that XR are either deliberately getting their activists in more trouble than necessary (for example by publicising police conditions on protests so that nobody can say in their defence that they were unaware of them) or they're just shit-eatingly stupid.
They're not stupid , there are a number of legitimate criticisms to be made of Extinction Rebellion but stupidity of the leadership isn't one of them.

They know what they're doing. I'm constantly surprised at how the anarchist movement here expects to be able to lecture XR on do's and don'ts. From what lofty pulpit of success might we ask?
 

Red Sky

It was like that when I got here.
That was a wider XR thing, essentially they alienated the lawyers by giving shit legal advice, pissed off ACAB by doing one training session on legal observing then bringing out their own version with massive errors, and temporarily collapsed GBC by assuming it was some sort of service that could deal with the fallout of hundreds of people getting arrested out of the blue. I had a chat with one of their self-described "unarrestables" a wee while back (people who regard themselves as core organisers - he seriously referred to himself as a "sort of general"), and the man was talking about leading legal support workshops after one intro day with ACAB while not knowing the names of the relevant legal firms, let along the intricacies of protest policing and rights more generally. Bonkers.

Edit: Oh yeah a friend of mine who was involved in a regional setup told me about the regional networks, which essentially has consisted of the core XR team telling local groups "you're on your own, good luck". She was less than impressed, though yes, I'm sure some of them will be working pretty hard.
Alienated the lawyers? Which firms aren't working with them?
 

redcogs

in the gutter beholding the stars
That was a wider XR thing, essentially they alienated the lawyers by giving shit legal advice, pissed off ACAB by doing one training session on legal observing then bringing out their own version with massive errors, and temporarily collapsed GBC by assuming it was some sort of service that could deal with the fallout of hundreds of people getting arrested out of the blue. I had a chat with one of their self-described "unarrestables" a wee while back (people who regard themselves as core organisers - he seriously referred to himself as a "sort of general"), and the man was talking about leading legal support workshops after one intro day with ACAB while not knowing the names of the relevant legal firms, let along the intricacies of protest policing and rights more generally. Bonkers.

Edit: Oh yeah a friend of mine who was involved in a local group setup process told me about the regional networks, which essentially has consisted of the core XR team telling local groups "you're on your own, good luck". She was less than impressed, though yes, I'm sure some of them will be working pretty hard.
Appreciated Rob Ray thanks. i'm late to the topic and have no experience of XR, but im getting an impression of an apprentice type organisation on a learning curve. We all started somewhere and at that time we each had much to learn? i find myself sympathetic towards XR and reckon sectarian type attitudes towards them (im not accusing anyone, just making a general point) aint that helpful. They will learn quickly from mistakes?
 

Rob Ray

Irony is well sad
I'm constantly surprised at how the anarchist movement here expects to be able to lecture XR on do's and don'ts.
I get that you might think criticism = jealousy or activistoid gatekeeping whatever, that's not uncommon on the left, but this isn't about high horses or willy-waving. What it's about is thousands of people potentially getting into trouble because they've been given bad legal advice and very little support. Believe it or not the anarchist movement does actually have some people involved who have a bit of experience on that front - and I'm not one of the folks with years of LO/protest savvy but even I know enough, for example, to make damn sure to tell mates not to sign a document saying "yes of course I'll commit a crime in the cause of XR" because that's a conspiracy charge in the making.

Alienated the lawyers? Which firms aren't working with them?
You can work that one out by knowing who the recommended firms are and noting which of them are not talking about XR - though from what I hear even Bindmans, which is representing the thousand-odd people going the courts, isn't exactly thrilled by the whole thing.
 

Red Sky

It was like that when I got here.
I get that you might think criticism = jealousy or activistoid gatekeeping whatever, that's not uncommon on the left, but this isn't about high horses or willy-waving. What it's about is thousands of people potentially getting into trouble because they've been given bad legal advice and very little support. Believe it or not the anarchist movement does actually have some people involved who have a bit of experience on that front - and I'm not one of the folks with years of LO/protest savvy but even I know enough, for example, to make damn sure to tell mates not to sign a document saying "yes of course I'll commit a crime in the cause of XR" because that's a conspiracy charge in the making.



You can work that one out by knowing who the recommended firms are and noting which of them are not talking about XR - though from what I hear even Bindmans, which is representing the thousand-odd people going the courts, isn't exactly thrilled by the whole thing.
Bindmans, Hodge Jones Allen, Kelly's etc are all representing XR defendants. They are the GBC recommended firms. So I don't think your point stands.

There has been quite an extraordinary amount of willy waving from high horses. It's a mark of the sad decline of the ecological anarchist movement really.
 

redcogs

in the gutter beholding the stars
They've been offered plenty of sound advice in good faith and seemingly ignored all of it.
Which is poor of course. But presumably XR's main mission is not to get their support base in loads of bother just for the hell of it, or just because they can? Maybe their decision making structures need some modification.
 

Rob Ray

Irony is well sad
There has been quite an extraordinary amount of willy waving from high horses. It's a mark of the sad decline of the ecological anarchist movement really.
Tbh I think that line says more about the lens you're seeing things through than it does about the people criticising XR.
 

Red Sky

It was like that when I got here.
Tbh I think that line says more about the lens you're seeing things through than it does about the people criticising XR.
It's been relentless criticism, often in bad faith, and little or no constructive engagement.

The anarchist movement used to be able to mobilise thousands not dozens. What happened?
 

Rob Ray

Irony is well sad
You're rather proving my point there Red Sky given criticism of XR certainly hasn't been relentless, nor is it unconstructive. GBC's article saying they couldn't work with XR any more for example showcases a group that made a lot of supportive effort, was constructive in its criticisms and even when it was in a state of collapse, was still offering good advice. ACAB hasn't published any public takedowns, GAF is clear with its praise even while noting problems — in fact afaik you'd be hard-pressed to find any anarchist group just straight up slagging them. And personally I think this is the first time I've posted anything critical on the subject in quite a while.

Edit: Also you're the one who keeps bringing numbers up, not me - who's willy-waving?
 
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redcogs

in the gutter beholding the stars
It's been relentless criticism, often in bad faith, and little or no constructive engagement.

The anarchist movement used to be able to mobilise thousands not dozens. What happened?
We've all lost our way a bit these last decades. But this moment is beginning to feel a bit like i remember the 1970s were. i know they ended badly, with Thatch etc, but the hope that was generated by the early 70s struggles.. Maybe there is room for some optimism?
 
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