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Extinction Rebellion

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
I dont think Russia in 1917 bears any resemblance to the UK today. If you think a Bolshevik party could sieze power today you must be very prone to fantasy
I've answered the questions you posed. If, as appears the case, you wanted different answers then you should have asked different questions. You must have been a great disappointment to your mother.
 

NoXion

Waiting is temporary, DOOM is eternal.
You think a bunch of Anarchists will bring the government to its knees by smashing up a MacDonalds?
No.

But that's because of a lack of popular support, not because of violence. The dichotomy between violence and non-violence is, I contend, a false one. Sometimes it is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I see no value in making a principle out of something that should be a matter of pragmatism.
 

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
No.

But that's because of a lack of popular support, not because of violence. The dichotomy between violence and non-violence is, I contend, a false one. Sometimes it is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I see no value in making a principle out of something that should be a matter of pragmatism.
It is one tool in the box
 

rich!

stalin tache
I now know one person who has refused to work with them on the grounds that their stance on NVDA includes "shop anyone who seems violent to the police"...
 

smokedout

criminal
Possibly...who knows. if you live in London, quite possibly.

But come on lets hear how smashing up MacDonalds will bring the state to its knees
I lived in Catford prior to the 2011 riots. Almost every day I would see a young kid, usually black but not always, getting stopped and searched. I got stopped a couple of times myself, both times illegally. After the riots I never saw it happen again.

The state will always pretend it doesn't care about violence, but the truth is nothing makes them brick it more than violent disorder on the streets. We only have to be lucky once after all. And whilst in most cases it will not bring a state to it's knees (until it does) the state will quietly respond and often aquiesce, as happened with the poll tax.
 

heebyjeeby

New Member
I've answered the questions you posed. If, as appears the case, you wanted different answers then you should have asked different questions. You must have been a great disappointment to your mother.
Hmm, and you weren't? How much was your education and what did you do with it?
 

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
Hmm, and you weren't? How much was your education and what did you do with it?
no, no I wasn't. I have no notion how much my education cost - and I don't believe I'm alone in that. What have I done with it? Well, recently I've shown the paucity of your knowledge.
 

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
So you are basically a no hoper who was privately educated but can't get a career
you asked how much my education cost. I have no idea how much the government spent on it. How much did your education cost? From where I'm sitting every single penny was wasted.
 

FridgeMagnet

Administrator
15 environmental protesters arrested at civil disobedience campaign in London

I went along this morning (I had a day off) though didn't stay too long. The thing that I found the most unusual was hearing people saying outright "we are going to break the law. We'll get arrested, but we'll continue to break the law until something gets done." It was a very polite rally but there was a lot of anger and determination in the speeches. I had an idea that there would be some actual arrestable civil disobedience, somewhat confirmed when they were handing out bust cards with flyers.
 

rich!

stalin tache
The thing that I found the most unusual was hearing people saying outright "we are going to break the law. We'll get arrested, but we'll continue to break the law until something gets done."
Yeah, that was the most impressive thing for me;they were building on solid analysis of how NVDA succeeds, which is to have people willing to be arrested go and get arrested.
 

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
Yeah, that was the most impressive thing for me;they were building on solid analysis of how NVDA succeeds, which is to have people willing to be arrested go and get arrested.
No, nvda doesn't work like that. It works when the action, generally disruption, succeeds, which is helped by an acceptance of the risk of arrest as an occupational hazard. Going out willing to be nicked and being nicked is as much a measure of success as the auld body count in vietnam

How did this action succeed? What were its aims? I doubt hours in cells was their chosen metric of success
 

FridgeMagnet

Administrator
I would say that the attitude that you are pretty likely to be arrested and that it's all part of the process of what you're doing is very important. As well as preparing you for something that's going to happen eventually, it takes away a lot of the force of the tactics to prevent you acting at all. It's a mindset. If you fight you will get hit; the fear of getting hit may stop you fighting in the first place.
 

FridgeMagnet

Administrator
The other thing that I empathised with was the level of outrage and frustration about how such enormous ecological damage has been done, continues to be done and continues to be ignored. I feel this daily but it mostly just manifests itself in extremely black humour and the tendency to say "well we'll all be fighting in the Thunderdome for beans by then anyway" when anyone brings up long-term politics.
 
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rich!

stalin tache
No, nvda doesn't work like that. It works when the action, generally disruption, succeeds, which is helped by an acceptance of the risk of arrest as an occupational hazard. Going out willing to be nicked and being nicked is as much a measure of success as the auld body count in vietnam

How did this action succeed? What were its aims? I doubt hours in cells was their chosen metric of success
As I understand it they are not doing "NVDA as shutdown" like, say the digger divers at Newbury, or the lorry surfers at PNR. They are doing NVDA as protest/declaration, so more in a Ghandian or NAACP approach.

I am several days away from my books but when they presented the reasoning it resonated as a reflection of good analysis of the occasions when NVDA has succeeded in changing social mores and achieved a revolutionary change without violence.
 

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
As I understand it they are not doing "NVDA as shutdown" like, say the digger divers at Newbury, or the lorry surfers at PNR. They are doing NVDA as protest/declaration, so more in a Ghandian or NAACP approach.

I am several days away from my books but when they presented the reasoning it resonated as a reflection of good analysis of the occasions when NVDA has succeeded in changing social mores and achieved a revolutionary change without violence.
I'm not persuaded that has ever happened
 

Brainaddict

chief propagandist (provisional)
A friend of mine is interested in this and despite my scepticism I might go along to something with them. News that 'we' have killed off 60% of all animals does have me slightly annoyed and worried for the future, and it's depressing that so few people seem bothered/empowered enough to do anything about it.
 

LynnDoyleCooper

I fucking told you so.
I totally appreciate the urgency and passion they express about the ecological disaster we're currently in and that we are blindly hurtling towards a even greater one. I do of course wish there would be some upsurge in mass resistance to it, and I'd even not be too critical if it had shitty politics and was reformist, so long as it worked and on some level gave results.

I fear this that it is more likely to be another distraction from the much harder political work that needs to be done, that while not specifically 'ecological' is more likely to be productive in both its short term methods and longer term possibilities.
 

Borp

member
News that 'we' have killed off 60% of all animals.
The reporting of that story annoyed me slightly. It was reported as if 60% of animals have been killed. Which isn't the case. The numbers are from the living planet index which show that average population numbers measured by the index have reduced by 60% since 1970. The index measures about 16,000 populations of 4000 vertebrate species.

Still bad of course. But the reporting seemed a bit inaccurate.

Edit: this explains a bit more, although I'm not sure it adds that much light Crunching numbers: the data behind the Living Planet Index
 
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LynnDoyleCooper

I fucking told you so.
interesting thread.. why not come along on 17th November and see for yourselves. Yesterday was incredible - you'll be sorry to miss out - and we will miss you all not being there <3 ... and in 10 years time it will be too late. We can try and we refuse to go quietly.XR – Action Begins – eXtinction Rebellion
Why are Extinction Rebellion writing out the parts of social change movements from the past that don't fit your non-violence format? Lots of lauding (for example) the ANC and US civil rights movement as examples of how non-violence alone has worked.

For sure if you think it's essential for the state we're in here and now, but fuck off with this re-writing history nonsense, at best it makes you look like you have a poor understanding of social change, at worst it makes you look like cynical politicos, something you rail against.
 
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