Ex-President Carter slams Israel, claims they have "150 nuclear weapons"
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weltweit
Well-Known Member
That is not to say that we don't have battlefield nukes (tactical nukes I think they are aka) These are the devices that permit us to defend Europe against the Warsaw Pact because they meant that if the Russians ever massed their forces for an invasion all their forces concentrated into a small area could be wiped out with one tactical nuke.
Fruitloop: "Crappy definition of fascism.":Actually it is quite stock. If you have another I would be pleased to hear it. Always open to new ideas and all that.
Panda: First off, I do not believe that the phrase "Anti-Semite" makes any sense at all unless it used to describe someone who hates both Jew AND Arab.
As for Carter being anti-Jewish, I would actually have no clue on that one and do not suspect that he is but I DO KNOW that he is anti-Israeli to the point of irrationality and that MIGHT lead others to make that assumption about him since anti-Jeiwhsness is often clothed in more acceptable cloaks to get it under the door.
Anyone who accuses Israel , a Jewish Nation, of engaging in Apartheid against Arabs (both groups of course being Semites so that not only are they of the same "race" but of the same sub-grouping as well) is non-sensical to say the least. Even that fool Chomsky has made that point.
Anyone who then accues Israel of engaging in the "Worst" human rights abuse of our time is fully crocked.
anyone who does so after representing a church that hated blacks while the President is 100 percent bonkers.
Frog: "Has Israel ever tested them?": I will repeat my post to you in that Israel is ACCUSED of testing them on a South African owned island.
Nuclear weapons, in nations that have them, are often tested far underground (literally) so that the normal person would have no inkling whatsoever.
Panda: First off, I do not believe that the phrase "Anti-Semite" makes any sense at all unless it used to describe someone who hates both Jew AND Arab.
As for Carter being anti-Jewish, I would actually have no clue on that one and do not suspect that he is but I DO KNOW that he is anti-Israeli to the point of irrationality and that MIGHT lead others to make that assumption about him since anti-Jeiwhsness is often clothed in more acceptable cloaks to get it under the door.
Anyone who accuses Israel , a Jewish Nation, of engaging in Apartheid against Arabs (both groups of course being Semites so that not only are they of the same "race" but of the same sub-grouping as well) is non-sensical to say the least. Even that fool Chomsky has made that point.
Anyone who then accues Israel of engaging in the "Worst" human rights abuse of our time is fully crocked.
anyone who does so after representing a church that hated blacks while the President is 100 percent bonkers.
Frog: "Has Israel ever tested them?": I will repeat my post to you in that Israel is ACCUSED of testing them on a South African owned island.
Nuclear weapons, in nations that have them, are often tested far underground (literally) so that the normal person would have no inkling whatsoever.
DetroitCity: Equating Israel with the Nazis is out of vogue by now, you better get with it.
Actually, people that make THAT comparison are , well let me aim for civility (as always) and just say far off the mark. The day we make wallets out of Arabs or gas them you can feel free to add that one to the aresenal but until then, you might really wish to research the issues of both Israel AND the Nazis so that you , again the civility, do not end up with proverbial egg on the face.
Actually, people that make THAT comparison are , well let me aim for civility (as always) and just say far off the mark. The day we make wallets out of Arabs or gas them you can feel free to add that one to the aresenal but until then, you might really wish to research the issues of both Israel AND the Nazis so that you , again the civility, do not end up with proverbial egg on the face.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Thats nonsense, underground nuclear tests were routinely detected by seismic means and despite a lot of research here, in the US and USSR noone (as far as I am aware) was able to successfully disguise a test. Yes, a "normal" person might not have an inkling (though they would be unlikely to be walking around above it), but the international community would.
my point was more that both entities were/are rogue nation-states...
The US was even talking about digging large caverns underneath Nevada and pumping all the air out before setting off a tiny nuke. But that was just propaganda against a test-ban treaty.
Every nuke they did set off - and every test they did where they deliberately didn't have a nuclear explosion - the international seismological community was able to ring them up and tell them the explosive yield to the nearest few kilos of TNT equivalent.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
They (and the USSR, and we) also tried decoupling the blasts, without success.
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/e/excelsior_tunnel/index.shtml
but this is a bit of a derail.
Ta!
On these threads, showing that rach is talking bollocks is never a derail
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
There was an anomalous event over the south Atlantic in, I think, 1979, which is widely believed to have been an Israeli nuke test carried out with South African help.
E2A:
Here's link for example:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB190/index.htm
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Is this somehow news?
I thought it was first leaked back in the 80s.
How many nukes does SA have?
Tutu and the Nukes. Makes a good band name.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
It's like the US and guns. You're less likely to break into a place if you know the owner is sitting inside with a shotgun across his knees.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Funny: the Nazis wanted to end the jewish race.
Now, certain arab states want to end Israel, and kill or drive out the jews.
But......wait for it..... it's the jews who are equated with nazi Germany.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Then why not compare them to North Korea, or Zimbabwe?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Jimmy Carter, the Prince of Peace..............who ordered that botched raid on Teheran to free the US hostages during the Crisis.
First US prez to commit an act of war against Iran.
Way to come to the table with clean hands!
First US prez to commit an act of war against Iran.
Way to come to the table with clean hands!
he didn't have any choice, it was a PR nightmare
had it worked he may have beat Reagan in the '80 election
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
he didn't have any choice, it was a PR nightmare
had it worked he may have beat Reagan in the '80 election
He could have endorsed a plan that might have worked, like one that included backup helicopters, or engines shielded from blowing sand.
Also, it's interesting to note, that the new friend of the Middle East was so hated by the same people back then, that the minute Reagan got into office, the hostages were released, as a slap in the face of Carter.
you're talking about the Iranians...they are not the Israelis or Palestinians or even considered mideasterners, they are Persians. Either way, he is one of the few who has the balls to speak the truth in public. Not to mention that he is actually a very decent and fair fellow...it takes much more strength to not retaliate with force...
Carter was a classic example of "nice guys" finishing last
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
None. The SA bomb programmed was nixed when the apartheid regime cashed in its chips.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I've read that the program was cancelled. What happened to the bombs already built?
Now there's a question. Back to the old nuclear tech black market that Edmonds and others have exposed:
"It is not known whether the covert agent was a Brewster Jennings' asset but it would not be surprising considering Karni was an important link in the A. Q. Khan nuclear smuggling network. By the time the initital shipment of 66 triggers were sent to Karni's Cape Town office, U.S. and South African intelligence were already closely monitoring the transaction and the key players involved. It is also noteworthy that Karni previously worked for a Cape Town electronic import firm called Eagle Technology but was fired after it was discovered by his boss that he was making secret deals to ship nuclear components to Israel, India, Pakistan, and possibly, North Korea."
....
"Karni had been in South Africa for 20 years after arriving from Israel. His time in South Africa coincided with the apartheid government's rapid development of its own (since disestablished) nuclear weapons program and very close military ties between South Africa and Israel."
[The Swiss CIA Nuke Connection]
Agricola: "That is nonsense.": The usual underground testing depth is around200 meters (roughly 650 feet). Livermore baely was able to detect at 400 meters using a new method that is being pushed in Vienna. Imagine then, if you will, a cavity much, much deeper (ALL IMAGINING).You imagine that it would be possible to detect it with mere seismic equipment when a tactical warhead is usually around 1/2 a kiloton and rates , usually, a maximum of 4 on the Richter Scale. Using Seimsmic signatures a CLAIM could be made, but would not even be arguable let alone newsworth for anything but fringe media.
There ARE methods such as optical analysis but they are still only viable (that and other cutting edge methods) at certain depths and kiloton ratings.
In addition, mathamatical and computer computation allow for detonation of very small charges and then compiling the theoretical applications of asmaller than tactical charge.
Finally, you are probably also ignoring the fact that states like North Korea WANT the world to know of its testing in order to present itself as a "player." nations that do not want to be "players," and who have ALLEGEDLY developed nuclear weapons almost a half century ago have no reason to let the world know anything.
Detroit: Thank you for clearing that up, although any such analogy is still below par as far as tastefulness, civility, and above all accuracy. Israel is not a Rogue nation, neither was Nazi Germany by the way. Germany was in fact on (diplomatically)rather good terms with the UK and the US up until it pushed the envelope much too far.
A "Rogue State" is a nation that goes against International Standards, a nation such as North Korea or Communist Era Albania. In other words, a nation that has no standing in the international Community.
Outside of the Arab World and Venezuela (snicker) Israel is quite well received. People that osppose it outside of the Arab Wrodl are considered, by governments, to be radicalised so that they are not the majority in any given way.
Outside of the Arab World, Israel is not under any kind of boycott (despite the efforts of UK nutters who propose Academic and Artistic Boycotts which are the most ridiculous of all since those two avenues are the means by which to effect most change within a society. Ergo the push for such boycotts is easily decloaked for what it is).
There ARE methods such as optical analysis but they are still only viable (that and other cutting edge methods) at certain depths and kiloton ratings.
In addition, mathamatical and computer computation allow for detonation of very small charges and then compiling the theoretical applications of asmaller than tactical charge.
Finally, you are probably also ignoring the fact that states like North Korea WANT the world to know of its testing in order to present itself as a "player." nations that do not want to be "players," and who have ALLEGEDLY developed nuclear weapons almost a half century ago have no reason to let the world know anything.
Detroit: Thank you for clearing that up, although any such analogy is still below par as far as tastefulness, civility, and above all accuracy. Israel is not a Rogue nation, neither was Nazi Germany by the way. Germany was in fact on (diplomatically)rather good terms with the UK and the US up until it pushed the envelope much too far.
A "Rogue State" is a nation that goes against International Standards, a nation such as North Korea or Communist Era Albania. In other words, a nation that has no standing in the international Community.
Outside of the Arab World and Venezuela (snicker) Israel is quite well received. People that osppose it outside of the Arab Wrodl are considered, by governments, to be radicalised so that they are not the majority in any given way.
Outside of the Arab World, Israel is not under any kind of boycott (despite the efforts of UK nutters who propose Academic and Artistic Boycotts which are the most ridiculous of all since those two avenues are the means by which to effect most change within a society. Ergo the push for such boycotts is easily decloaked for what it is).
Detorit: As an Israeli, I have to tell you that geographically as well as culturally, Iranian is in the Middle East, it borders Iraq on one side and Afghnistan on the other. Afghanistan is arguably outside the realm but it is all Western Asia so again, arguably within the realm.
Carter would not have beaten Reagan. As someone who was both alive and in America at that time I can offer that the country was just trotting out fo a recession that Carter inherited but also did nothing to do away with, and his entire Foreign Poilicy was one of error after error, the only high point being Egypt and Israel and in retrospect that was no achievement to brag about. While we are allowed into Egypt (wow, thanks), trade is nothing to bother with even discussing and no Egyptians really ever enter Israel outside of a tiny circle of big private buisnessmen. Both at the time and in retrospect Carter achieved a fat zero...although Habitat for Humanity is kind of cute.
Johnny: Yes, it is a joke that Carter is now the pal of Muslims everywhere. I find that many elderly and demnted people (not one and the same but in this case dead on) often rue their biggest blunders and then go off, in the fashion of Don Quixote chasing windmills.
Carter would not have beaten Reagan. As someone who was both alive and in America at that time I can offer that the country was just trotting out fo a recession that Carter inherited but also did nothing to do away with, and his entire Foreign Poilicy was one of error after error, the only high point being Egypt and Israel and in retrospect that was no achievement to brag about. While we are allowed into Egypt (wow, thanks), trade is nothing to bother with even discussing and no Egyptians really ever enter Israel outside of a tiny circle of big private buisnessmen. Both at the time and in retrospect Carter achieved a fat zero...although Habitat for Humanity is kind of cute.
Johnny: Yes, it is a joke that Carter is now the pal of Muslims everywhere. I find that many elderly and demnted people (not one and the same but in this case dead on) often rue their biggest blunders and then go off, in the fashion of Don Quixote chasing windmills.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
So basically your theory is based on you imagining this to be possible?
The test you describe is the NPE.
Actually, Livermore were able to easily detect the explosion seismically, identify some distinction between a chemical and a nuclear test, and they were also able to demonstrate that they could detect on the surface for some time afterwards chemicals and radioactive materials, typical of such a blast, that were coming from the test site underground.
Also, even if there was just a "claim", do you really think that the monitoring organizations would just leave it at that? As for ALLEGEDLY, I think you are deluding yourself - short of them actually coming out and saying they have them, it is blatantly obvious that they do have them and have had them for at least thirty-five to forty years.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Agfricola: "Imagining possible.": I am an Israeli citizen and a retired IDF officer. Claiming that Israel posseses nuclear weapons could put me in prison. While I do have a very good imagination, I do not engage it in discussion of things political,etc.
"NPE.": Given that I touched on it it is safe to assume that I am at least remotely acquantied with the technology.
Given your apparent familiarity with the theory and its workup (it is merely a computerised model based on non-radioactive trace gases) you will be well aware that it was tooled based on a 400 meter ( If I remember correctly) depth in an environment where testing was completely open and unfettered. It has nothing to do with a more realistic depth (realistic per a nation that would want to conceal nuclear testing) nor a nation that did not permit scientists open and unfettered access with which to apply this theory.
"Even if it were just a claim, would monitoring agencies leave it at that.": They did not. In 1960 it was on the front burner of the International Community and as I explained, this is why America developed , or began to develop its cozy tactical alliance with Israel. An American team working for the International Community DID examine the Dimona Facility and came away with no proof whatsoever that the facility could even produce components for such a device...and yet, as one poster has concurred, Israel is ALLEGED to have tested at least one device in cooperation with the previous regime of S. Africa.
At this time and juncture, Vienna has no right to demand anything in thsi regard since there is indications of anything contravening any standard(s). In fact, even the ALLEGED 1979 event (not the first ALLEGATION cocnerning a possible testing by those 2 entities in conjunction with each other.
Vintage: I would not rely on Wiki except for ITS bonafide sources (listed under each entry). Although they have instituted an editorial policy it did not exist until about 18 months ago. Until then, and too often still, it is written by consumers without any kind of editorial input (such as fact cheking). However, examing the entry, it DOES do a great job (and not because it offers much the same thing I myself stated along with all related material on this label and ideology but because it is accurate and (this happens rarely with Wiki) VERY thorough. I hope others will take a peak at it and see for themselves that the barebones definition is just as I stated.
"NPE.": Given that I touched on it it is safe to assume that I am at least remotely acquantied with the technology.
Given your apparent familiarity with the theory and its workup (it is merely a computerised model based on non-radioactive trace gases) you will be well aware that it was tooled based on a 400 meter ( If I remember correctly) depth in an environment where testing was completely open and unfettered. It has nothing to do with a more realistic depth (realistic per a nation that would want to conceal nuclear testing) nor a nation that did not permit scientists open and unfettered access with which to apply this theory.
"Even if it were just a claim, would monitoring agencies leave it at that.": They did not. In 1960 it was on the front burner of the International Community and as I explained, this is why America developed , or began to develop its cozy tactical alliance with Israel. An American team working for the International Community DID examine the Dimona Facility and came away with no proof whatsoever that the facility could even produce components for such a device...and yet, as one poster has concurred, Israel is ALLEGED to have tested at least one device in cooperation with the previous regime of S. Africa.
At this time and juncture, Vienna has no right to demand anything in thsi regard since there is indications of anything contravening any standard(s). In fact, even the ALLEGED 1979 event (not the first ALLEGATION cocnerning a possible testing by those 2 entities in conjunction with each other.
Vintage: I would not rely on Wiki except for ITS bonafide sources (listed under each entry). Although they have instituted an editorial policy it did not exist until about 18 months ago. Until then, and too often still, it is written by consumers without any kind of editorial input (such as fact cheking). However, examing the entry, it DOES do a great job (and not because it offers much the same thing I myself stated along with all related material on this label and ideology but because it is accurate and (this happens rarely with Wiki) VERY thorough. I hope others will take a peak at it and see for themselves that the barebones definition is just as I stated.
you're talking about the Iranians...they are not the Israelis or Palestinians or even considered mideasterners, they are Persians. Either way, he is one of the few who has the balls to speak the truth in public. Not to mention that he is actually a very decent and fair fellow...it takes much more strength to not retaliate with force...
Carter was a classic example of "nice guys" finishing last
During his presidential election campaign he held a 'Rally for Calley' to boost his popularity. Calley being William Calley of My Lai fame. Carter is a complete and utter cunt whose only redeeming feature is that he such a miserable failure as President he was chucked out after one term. Unfortunately he was replaced by an even bigger cunt.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
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