Evidence and Statistics!!!!

[bluestreak]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4715994.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4275736.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4270044.stm

might help you to understand a little bit about it all.

but then, they use statistics and not prejudice, so they might not. i'm sure you can find more detailed explanations if you choose to research it yourself, but i doubt you'll bother.

how, incidentally, do you make decisions on things without resorting to looking at figures to give you an idea of how the world works? i seem to recall that you've rejected other peoples' experiences as being valid opinion guidance... do you just look at what peolpe around here think and do the opposite?

 

[tbaldwin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4715994.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4275736.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4270044.stm

might help you to understand a little bit about it all.

but then, they use statistics and not prejudice, so they might not. i'm sure you can find more detailed explanations if you choose to research it yourself, but i doubt you'll bother.

how, incidentally, do you make decisions on things without resorting to looking at figures to give you an idea of how the world works? i seem to recall that you've rejected other peoples' experiences as being valid opinion guidance... do you just look at what peolpe around here think and do the opposite?

YOU REALLY DONT GET IT,DO YOU?

My point is all about vested interests and how they use "evidence and statistics... And then you post a link to a totally biased interpretation of statistics..
The NUS are scum,who largely ignore those in FE for the more privelleged H/E.
The Higher Educational establishment have been whingeing for years.
These vested interests get a very "sympathetic hearing in the media cos is people like them who run the media....
But what about allthe people who never go into H/E.. I note the BBC dont consider any of their opinions worth airing......

 

[bluestreak]

oh good grief, waht are you on about now? trying to have a discussion with you is like trying to juggle with jelly.

everyone ignores FE, for a nubmer of reasons. the unions are weak, there's no fixed FE pattern, colleges are a lot more independent in some areas or linked to schools in others, FE is more flexible, it offers vocational and non-vocational courses. waht exactly do you want to know about FE?

or are you saying there is no media for the working classes?

what exactly are you trying to do hre apart from keep on shouting YOU DON'T GET IT at everyone who tries to engage and then shift on to something else whilst using previous answers to back yourself up.

how about a brief, concise, clearly worded, non-hysterical list of points that you need addressed on the topic.

 

[tbaldwin]

oh good grief, waht are you on about now? trying to have a discussion with you is like trying to juggle with jelly.

everyone ignores FE, for a nubmer of reasons. the unions are weak, there's no fixed FE pattern, colleges are a lot more independent in some areas or linked to schools in others, FE is more flexible, it offers vocational and non-vocational courses. waht exactly do you want to know about FE?

or are you saying there is no media for the working classes?

what exactly are you trying to do hre apart from keep on shouting YOU DON'T GET IT at everyone who tries to engage and then shift on to something else whilst using previous answers to back yourself up.

how about a brief, concise, clearly worded, non-hysterical list of points that you need addressed on the topic.

To be brief the points are.

1 That lots of statistics are made up.
2 Vested Interests produce the stats they want.
3 People interpret stats in a way that suits their prejudices.

 

[durruti02]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4715994.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4275736.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4270044.stm

.. you did walk into that one ..

tb's whole point is that there are a number of posters who whenever you debate something on urban jump at stats .. "hey look at what the govt/refugee council/bbc etc etc etc say" ... when for me the point is that the w/c do not have it's own statics collecting service. we are dependent on stats from the very state that so many of us have no faith ..

so there are times .. and i accept that this is not adequate .. when annecdotal info is just as relevent .. posters like keyboard jockey and myself talk regularly about what their w/c friends/neighbours/colleagues think ...opinions that do not appear in the stats ..why? because they are opinions that contradict the status quo ..

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

YOU REALLY DONT GET IT,DO YOU?

My point is all about vested interests and how they use "evidence and statistics... And then you post a link to a totally biased interpretation of statistics..
The NUS are scum,who largely ignore those in FE for the more privelleged H/E.
The Higher Educational establishment have been whingeing for years.
These vested interests get a very "sympathetic hearing in the media cos is people like them who run the media....
But what about allthe people who never go into H/E.. I note the BBC dont consider any of their opinions worth airing......

erm are you honestly suggesting that you should dimsiss all evidence provided due to some in consiqunetial bias which by the very nature of the reqested information and the system it's set up with in it will ultimaltely fail...

bang gose all human endevour since time immoreal then...

fuck me get soem sense of proportion...

 

[Blagsta]

Happens all the tome different employment projects all claim the same person as an outcome. Its a joke and ive seen it over and over again..

This is true, they do. But it is known about, allowed and accounted for. So what?

 

[laptop]

To be brief

The point is that some people produce "geezer told me in a pub" anecdotes as if they demonstrated anything more than that they'd been to the pub, and a geezer spoke.

Which is dishonest, lazy and a sign of a reactionary saloon-bar bore.

To defend it to promote hearfelt stupidity as superior to information - and making an effort to discover anything about the world outside their prejudices as "intellectual bullying". Two more sure signs of the reactionary bore.

 

[Tony Blair]

Baldwin is talking rubbish.. Statistics are an invaluable tool of governmental practice. It's through the use of statistical analysis of exam results over the last nine years that we can prove that educational standards are improving. What's the alternative? That we just insist they're rising, without any evidence? And through the same procedure, we can refute critics who insist that schools are getting worse in the face of the evidence to the contrary.

One of the achievements that this government is very proud of is the reduction of unemployment to under a million, shown by records of the numbers claiming jobseekers allowance. Accurate information keeping, and use of information is at the core of government practice. And it is only through our use of the information available to us that we can guide our policies. Which is why, to be honest, I find myself annoyed at the left's attempts to portray our attempts to improve our knowledge of what's going on in the country as
authoritarian, and bigbrotherish.

 

[William of Walworth]

We await Tony to have sufficient time to give his thoughts on the Football, Music and Drugs forums!!!

 

[Pigeon]

To be brief the points are.

1 That lots of statistics are made up.

Except those produced confirming the Government's successes in recruiting nurses/improving equality of access to HE. They can be quoted with confidence.

2 Vested Interests produce the stats they want.

Except the Govenment's- they're kosher.

3 People interpret stats in a way that suits their prejudices.

tbaldwin's interpretation of stats are free of any ideological baggage.

 

[tbaldwin]

Except those produced confirming the Government's successes in recruiting nurses/improving equality of access to HE. They can be quoted with confidence.


Except the Govenment's- they're kosher.


tbaldwin's interpretation of stats are free of any ideological baggage.

You ignore the stats that dont suit your narrow political agenda but want to accept nonsense made up stats by campaigning groups etc...
It would be a lot harder for the govt to lie about the number of extra nurses than it would for say an anti racist group to produce some bullshit about how "Racist Attacks are rising" etc
he trouble with too many urban75 types is they accept the bullshit and dismiss the facts..
The govt has spent an extra £19.9Billion on the NHS but if you looked at urban75 you might be forgiven for thinking the NHS was under attack.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The govt has spent an extra £19.9Billion on the NHS but if you looked at urban75 you might be forgiven for thinking the NHS was under attack.

and fucktard comment of the month goes to ....

the nsh is under attack it started with nhs trust schemee decideing that each department needed to make a profit which of course cannot really be measured but still had to charge each other for their serivces (thus fragmenting the system) away from total holistic care and into interdepartmental competitions for funding... it increased the number of managers and and administrative personell and at the same time diminished the roles of those staff best suited to judge the qualitly of care towards the patients ie the nursing staff and docters...

It then has been privatised by the back door by being sold off in chunks leaving a system which then needs greater and greater funding to pay for the staff it used to have in the same damn building but are now subcontracted out to a different profit centre....

this then has been used to cite that the NHS has then been failign to resolve the issue of funding and is becoming a greater and greater sink whole too then support the establishment of foundation hospitals (wholly private ventures propped up and supported by public funding returning dividends to share holders) which then further diminish the local hospitals to the point where the original facuilities are starved of cash and effectively put out of business by govermental decree...

what has happened to the NHS is the equiverlent of what has happened to the cafe culture in comparison to starbucks expansion....

if you are to idiotic to see this then you are not worth any for of adult debate and need to fuck right off....

 

[tbaldwin]

Garfield what a well balnced posting!!!!!
So an extra £19.9 billion spent means the NHS is under threat.... Excellent logic.....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Garfield what a well balnced posting!!!!!
So an extra £19.9 billion spent means the NHS is under threat.... Excellent logic.....

it wouldn't matter if it were an extra 100 billion billion billion if it then had to be spent on other things which aid the privatiseation of the the NHs and has to be spent of nhs trained but now private consultants... throwing money into a black hole of a system which you have created as a sink hole for funding to allow private enterprise to secure the cash and take it out of public circulation and into private hands is a threat... you cannot take the amount and say that this means its not under threat if you do not also look at the context in which that amount is to be spent... unless of course you are a tiedious infant with all the intellectual capablities of a small gnat...

which clearly you are now parrot fashion again that context free argument you prize monkey fucker...

 

[tbaldwin]

So give us the figures for how many extra nurses and then give us the figures for PFI,PPP....
Your just repeating hysterical nonsense about the privatisation of the NHS.
The truth is the NHS has always had private companies making billions out of it...

Your points are completely unoriginal and illthought through...
The govt has poured billions into the NHS and only a small proportion (though i'm not defnding it) has gone into the black hole as you call it....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So give us the figures for how many extra nurses and then give us the figures for PFI,PPP....
Your just repeating hysterical nonsense about the privatisation of the NHS.
The truth is the NHS has always had private companies making billions out of it...

Your points are completely unoriginal and illthought through...
The govt has poured billions into the NHS and only a small proportion (though i'm not defnding it) has gone into the black hole as you call it....

really ever worked in or for the nhs from the start of trusts to the aftermath...

you clueless fuck you know nothing so please do enlighten us as to why it's wrong and refute what is being siad based on pure hard solid fact as opposed to your cloearly airy fairy facts are all releative teenage angst mindset....

come on then you cretin explain, in detail, why it's incorrect when even the govt's own stuides show that this is precisely what has happened, in fact they are using this precise reasoning to defend the concept of foundation hosptials... docters nurses paramedics surgeons, porters any one with in the helath service other than your blairite bullshit bollocks will agree you are continually spouting like some syphallitic dissentry infected pustual

 

[tbaldwin]

Garfield, the evidence i see every week when i go in my cancer ward is more nurses...
The evidence is £19.9billion of extra spending..... WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT ITS ALL BEEN WASTED????????
Your typical of 6th form public schoolboys who suddenly get into Left wing politics and decide to tell the world EVERYTHING is wrong....
If only it were that simple.....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Garfield, the evidence i see every week when i go in my cancer ward is more nurses...
The evidence is £19.9billion of extra spending..... WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT ITS ALL BEEN WASTED????????
Your typical of 6th form public schoolboys who suddenly get into Left wing politics and decide to tell the world EVERYTHING is wrong....
If only it were that simple.....

erm checkt he profile i haven't been to 6th form even if i had love then it'd have been a long time ago ...

so becuase oyu say that the nhs is changed and has been rejuvanated by it being near whole sale privatised this is therefore a good thing and nothing should be allowed to dispute it becuase that is your opinion no amount of evidence or facts or stats should get in the way of this thus goes your doctrim right...

in which case under those terms i think that you are sleeping with the elderly cancer ridden pensioners in the cancer wards agains their wishes, i think that you are doing so violently, and are doing so with out their consent... now then as there is no need for fact's evidence or indeed any other reasoning care to point out how my observation is not now as vaild as any you might make to counter it...

you cancer granny rapist....

see where this leads your insistance on the irrelevance of facts... of evidence... you'd be on a granny raping asbo if not worse...

no fuck off you tiedious little troll....

 

[tbaldwin]

erm checkt he profile i haven't been to 6th form even if i had love then it'd have been a long time ago ...

so becuase oyu say that the nhs is changed and has been rejuvanated by it being near whole sale privatised this is therefore a good thing and nothing should be allowed to dispute it becuase that is your opinion no amount of evidence or facts or stats should get in the way of this thus goes your doctrim right...

in which case under those terms i think that you are sleeping with the elderly cancer ridden pensioners in the cancer wards agains their wishes, i think that you are doing so violently, and are doing so with out their consent... now then as there is no need for fact's evidence or indeed any other reasoning care to point out how my observation is not now as vaild as any you might make to counter it...

you cancer granny rapist....

see where this leads your insistance on the irrelevance of facts... of evidence... you'd be on a granny raping asbo if not worse...

no fuck off you tiedious little troll....

So in answer to the extra £19.9 billion spent on the NHS you insist its all been wasted and anyone who says different is a cancer granny rapist?
ermmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So in answer to the extra £19.9 billion spent on the NHS you insist its all been wasted and anyone who says different is a cancer granny rapist?
ermmmmmmmmmmmm

what it's as plausable as your no need for facts of figures cock routine ...

after all there's nothing fact wise that can bedoe to refute it is there... unless there is some convient get out clause which now allows you to use evidence if your own libertywere to be threatened by the accusations and in which case the system you ascirbe to would be shown to be nothing more than an ellborate but not clever ruse to troll and internet bulleting board with nothing more than stuff an nonsense.

anyway why should we beleive you, your children are the by product of chimrea inbreeding with dogs and you know what they say about people with children like that... you fucking scum bag...

 

[tbaldwin]

Its always nice to debate with someone with such a fine grasp of reasoning,Garfield.
I think in this case though your case remains unproven. And your last posts point to somebody not totally at ease with the world.
Sadly i dont have stats to back this up....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Its always nice to debate with someone with such a fine grasp of reasoning,Garfield.
I think in this case though your case remains unproven. And your last posts point to somebody not totally at ease with the world.
Sadly i dont have stats to back this up....

i don't need to prove anything it has been said ergo by your reasoning it's vaild and also correct... no stat's or evidence or anything else is needed to verify this (it's your reasoning you made this shit up) so now either deny it and say why or accept it and apologise to the whole of urban, the third option would be i guess to accept that there is a vaild place for facts and figures but that often as is the case on a bulletin board where anonimity means people can and will say anything that there is an instinct to request for this vailidation when it is not always necessary...

so which is it granny fucker??

 

[tbaldwin]

so which is it granny fucker??

Lies Damned Lies and Statistics.
People use them and abuse them on U75,they do it to make themselves sound clever and spin the ones they can.
They think its a sign of "Oh look ive won the arguement" and they are talking shit.
When somebody puts up stats they dont like stuff like all the extra govt spending they rely on the old daily mail wankathon of "OH BUT ITS ALL BEEN WASTED"

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Lies Damned Lies and Statistics.
People use them and abuse them on U75,they do it to make themselves sound clever and spin the ones they can.
They think its a sign of "Oh look ive won the arguement" and they are talking shit.
When somebody puts up stats they dont like stuff like all the extra govt spending they rely on the old daily mail wankathon of "OH BUT ITS ALL BEEN WASTED"

so are you a granny fucker or not ...

 

[tbaldwin]

so are you a granny fucker or not ...

er No..
I was hoping to be one day but fate seems to have made sure its never likely to happen...

 

[Pigeon]

You ignore the stats that dont suit your narrow political agenda but want to accept nonsense made up stats by campaigning groups etc...

As it goes, I've neither accepted nor rejected any stats on this fuckwitted thread. Whereas you've rejected the ones that don's suit your narrow political agenda but want to accept the nonsense made up stats by the Labour Party, the DoH etc...which is about what I'd expect from a chinless6th form public schoolboy etc etc ad infinitum (awaits balders' witty denunciation for "snobbily" using a Latin phrase.)

 

[Pigeon]

It would be a lot harder for the govt to lie...

Nothing more to see here. Move on, people.

 

[tbaldwin]

If say Save the Children mak up figures they get away with it cos nobody challenges them,if the govt do it they at least get challenged..
The Labour party could learn a lot about "spin" from some of the people on urban75.
It suits them to reject stats showing how extra money has gone into the NHS and Schools, How many extra nurses and teachers have been recruited. And to repeat stats made up by UNACCOUNTABLE pressure groups and charities.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

If say Save the Children mak up figures they get away with it cos nobody challenges them,if the govt do it they at least get challenged..
The Labour party could learn a lot about "spin" from some of the people on urban75.
It suits them to reject stats showing how extra money has gone into the NHS and Schools, How many extra nurses and teachers have been recruited. And to repeat stats made up by UNACCOUNTABLE pressure groups and charities.

erm both charisties and pressure groups are accountable other wise they'd not be either, legally...

you point still doesn't hold water though...