Europe re-arming

[A380]

Early edition of Changing Rooms. Americans weren't keen on the changes the British made

At least they painted over the ‘live, laugh, love ‘ sticker we put over the front door….

 

[PTK]

Those who claim that the Russian Federation wants to invade Euope may wish to answer this question: why did it not conquer tGeorgia in 2008?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Those who claim that the Russian Federation wants to invade Euope may wish to answer this question: why did it not conquer tGeorgia in 2008?

Why did Hitler not invade Poland in 1938 or 1937?

 

[gosub]

Those who claim that the Russian Federation wants to invade Euope may wish to answer this question: why did it not conquer tGeorgia in 2008?

How easy do you think it would be to get a reaction out of America if the headline was Russia invades Georgia

 

[PTK]

Why did Hitler not invade Poland in 1938 or 1937?

You are awre that there was a war between the Russian Federation and Georgia in 2008, and that Russian warplanes bombed Tbilisi, the capital city of Georgia?

 

[andysays]

Just out of interest, do you know why the White House is painted white.

It appears that the popular story about it being to hide the damage caused by British forces in 1814 is unfortunately a myth.

The earliest evidence of the public calling it the "White House" was recorded in 1811. A myth emerged that during the rebuilding of the structure after the Burning of Washington, white paint was applied to mask the burn damage it had suffered, giving the building its namesake hue.

When construction was finished (in about 1800), the porous sandstone walls were whitewashed with a mixture of lime, rice glue, casein, and lead, giving the house its familiar color and name.

 

[A380]

It appears that the popular story about it being to hide the damage caused by British forces in 1814 is unfortunately a myth.

Well, perhaps we can do better next time…

 

[MickiQ]

Amazon?

The central aisle at Aldi's where else?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

You are awre that there was a war between the Russian Federation and Georgia in 2008, and that Russian warplanes bombed Tbilisi, the capital city of Georgia?

Stuff happens when it happens for all sorts of reasons. Similarly when it doesn't happen. Come back to the topic of Georgia in ten years and who knows what may have transpired?

 

[planetgeli]

At least they painted over the ‘live, laugh, love ‘ sticker we put over the front door….

And replaced it with "you don't have to be mad to work here - but it helps!"

 

[JimW]

And replaced it with "you don't have to be mad to work here - but it helps!"

Though do wear a suit whatever.

 

[Brainaddict]

Hateful though the concept is, what other choice does Europe have?

Regardless of who takes over from Trump, the current admin has proven beyond any doubt that the US is now, at best, an 'unreliable partner' and the old assurance of the Americans wading in to help should NATO's Article 5 be invoked has been irreversibly undermined. What 'Western' and specifically, European powers have witnessed in the past month is a former ally and cornerstone of the military alliance that has largely helped to keep Europe free of major wars for the past 80 years turn around and threaten a NATO European state and made annexation overtures towards another non-European NATO state.

The breathtaking arrogance and myopic contempt that the Trump admin has displayed towards the US's closest allies is showing no sign of slowing down and it's highly likely that the next target for their disruptiveness is breaking the NATO alliance. So, in the event of that happening, what's to replace it? Eastern European states are rightly worried that an assertive Russia may want to start taking land -whether by 'salami-slicing' areas with a majority ethnic russian population, or by wholesale invasion. Russia may have the economy of Italy but it still has a significant proportion of the former USSR's nuclear forces and a shitload of mothballed vehicles and aircraft that they can dust-off and use. When people were mocking Russia a while ago for fielding tanks from the 1950's, Ukrainian soldiers were rightly saying 'any tank is a danger when you don't have the means to take it on'. Europe's reliance on American defensive guarantees for the best part of a century has left the continent in a militarily vulnerable position -the various nations do not have massive stockpiles of weapons and materiel that they can bring to bear at short notice. Likewise, the 'credible deterrence' of the French and British nuclear weapons stystems is miniscule compared to Russia's (a few hundred vs several thousand and no long-range capability as that got handed-off to the US). A significant number of the continent's defence contracts are being fulfilled by American defence contractors and not domestic ones which, again, leaves the continent somewhat exposed.

I hate the fact that we are now looking at a period where European powers once again start tooling up. I had hoped the post cold war dividend would extend to finally getting rid of nuclear weapons altogether but that never fucking happened, did it? It's a fucking shite state of affairs but this is the world we have inherited and now that the foundation of European security has been found to be built on sand, what else are the Europeans to do?

Do others agree with this? In as far as people have expressed any opinion about Europe re-arming on this thread (not very far), there has been some negativity too. The above presents something like the establishment view. But I'd like to hear the counter-arguments.

 

[Caller]

Has Keir Starmer done the maths? Can the UK and other European countries come up with the 100,000 soldiers needed to keep a peace deal in Ukraine?
It’s a big ask without the help of the USA.

 

[Hollis]

So Starmer's decided we need to spend a chunk more on the military. Denmark, of all countries, is splurging on the military. Germany is chomping at the bit.

The threat is considered to be Russia, and specifically Russia when the US isn't there to back us. And it does seem possible Russia wouldn't stop at Ukraine.

This is a thread to record what's happening, but also to ponder the wisdom of it all. And to think on such questions as: has there ever been a time when Europe re-armed and it didn't spiral into a European war and beyond? And if someone assassinated Putin would it save us all a lot of expense and trouble, or is Russia truly set on expansionism?

The argument being rearmament = war? Think things are more complicated than that.. certainly were in relation to SWW.

 

[MickiQ]

Sign of the times when even Ireland is considering re-arming

Plans to base combat jets at Shannon airport at annual cost of €100m

Simon Harris says he is convinced of need to acquire combat jet aircraft to ‘deter and detect’ airborne threats as part of massive increase in defence spending

www.irishtimes.com

 

[PTK]

Sign of the times when even Ireland is considering re-arming

Plans to base combat jets at Shannon airport at annual cost of €100m

Simon Harris says he is convinced of need to acquire combat jet aircraft to ‘deter and detect’ airborne threats as part of massive increase in defence spending

www.irishtimes.com

Yeah, quite right too, for we all know that the Russians have long wished to invade Ireland.

 

[gosub]

Sign of the times when even Ireland is considering re-arming

Plans to base combat jets at Shannon airport at annual cost of €100m

Simon Harris says he is convinced of need to acquire combat jet aircraft to ‘deter and detect’ airborne threats as part of massive increase in defence spending

www.irishtimes.com

Be better of with anti sub stuff to protect cables

 

[kebabking]

Be better of with anti sub stuff to protect cables

There's chat about a new agreement with the UK for just that.

 

[MickiQ]

Yeah, quite right too, for we all know that the Russians have long wished to invade Ireland.

I suspect that if the Nazi's had won WW2 and Operation Sealion had been a success then Ireland taking a neutral position would haven't been worth a fig they would have gobbled it up the day after they had control of GB.
Ireland is in a bit of an odd position, it would pretty much be an instant pushover for anyone who wants to invade but no-one actually wants too. Should it find itself with an external enemy (not very likely of course) then it's hard to imagine that the UK would not step in to defend it even if it came with lots of moaning about it.

 

[Aladdin]

I suspect that if the Nazi's had won WW2 and Operation Sealion had been a success then Ireland taking a neutral position would haven't been worth a fig they would have gobbled it up the day after they had control of GB.
Ireland is in a bit of an odd position, it would pretty much be an instant pushover for anyone who wants to invade but no-one actually wants too. Should it find itself with an external enemy (not very likely of course) then it's hard to imagine that the UK would not step in to defend it even if it came with lots of moaning about it.

There's nothing in Ireland worth invading for...except it's proximity to UK and perhaps the ridiculous number of data centres that suck 25% of our electricity.b

 

[PTK]

I suspect that if the Nazi's had won WW2 and Operation Sealion had been a success then Ireland taking a neutral position would haven't been worth a fig they would have gobbled it up the day after they had control of GB.
Ireland is in a bit of an odd position, it would pretty much be an instant pushover for anyone who wants to invade but no-one actually wants too. Should it find itself with an external enemy (not very likely of course) then it's hard to imagine that the UK would not step in to defend it even if it came with lots of moaning about it.

The Repubic of Ireland ought to be offering itself as a neutral mediator in the Russian-Ukraine war, rather than taking sides. Its neutrality is compromised by the fact that it a member of the Eureopean Union.

 

[MickiQ]

There's nothing in Ireland worth invading for...except it's proximity to UK and perhaps the ridiculous number of data centres that suck 25% of our electricity.b

My middle daughter goes to Galway regularly to visit her husband's family and swears the scenery is to die for. They keep inviting us to visit and we really must get round to it.

 

[Aladdin]

The Repubic of Ireland ought to be offering itself as a neutral mediator in the Russian-Ukraine war, rather than taking sides. Its neutrality is compromised by the fact that it a member of the Eureopean Union.

Lol.. no... Ireland is not compromised. It's not a member of Nato and it's not arming anyone.
It is an EU member so it has taken Ukrainian refugees...that's not taking sides.
Having a few fighter planes doesn't mean we are taking sides either. We are very ill equipped to fight off anyone.

My middle daughter goes to Galway regularly to visit her husband's family and swears the scenery is to die for. They keep inviting us to visit and we really must get round to it.

Yes..the scenery is beautiful. Always was...

 

[PTK]

Lol.. no... Ireland is not compromised. It's not a member of Nato and it's not arming anyone.
It is an EU member so it has taken Ukrainian refugees...that's not taking sides.
Having a few fighter planes doesn't mean we are taking sides either. We are very ill equipped to fight off anyone.


Yes..the scenery is beautiful. Always was...

Well, given that one aspect of the war in Ukraine is a contest between the EU and the Russian Federation over which economic sphere Ukraine is to be a member of, then membership of the EU does rather compromise the neutrality of the Repubic of Ireland.

 

[krtek a houby]

Well, given that one aspect of the war in Ukraine is a contest between the EU and the Russian Federation over which economic sphere Ukraine is to be a member of, then membership of the EU does rather compromise the neutrality of the Repubic of Ireland.

Nah.

Ireland defended itself when it's neighbour invaded, partitioned and eventually sent foreign troops onto Irish soil. And not long after that time, both Ireland and the invader were part of the EU.

The nation may not have the aircraft and subs needed to totally repel Russia, but we do have experience of giving bloody noses to imperials.

(And that's not confined to turning down plans for proposed expansion of the embassy in Dublin)

 

[Aladdin]

Well, given that one aspect of the war in Ukraine is a contest between the EU and the Russian Federation over which economic sphere Ukraine is to be a member of, then membership of the EU does rather compromise the neutrality of the Repubic of Ireland.

Not really. I would hope our neutrality stays strong.
Irish troops in groups of more than 12 cannot be deployed abroad without approval from cabinet, the Dáil and a resolution from the United Nations’ Security Council. The three-step approval is known as the ‘Triple Lock’..Irish troops have served as part of UN peacekeeping missions but nowhere else.

This has been the case up to now. However there is a proposal due next week to remove the triple lock system..I am hopefully it will not go through. Unfortunately the current leadership is a bit ambitious in terms of Europe..but I would think the vast majority of Irish people want us to remain neutral and want us to stay out of Nato.

 

[Nylock]

Do others agree with this? In as far as people have expressed any opinion about Europe re-arming on this thread (not very far), there has been some negativity too. The above presents something like the establishment view. But I'd like to hear the counter-arguments.

Just to clarify: my thoughts on the rationalisation behind the potential drivers for re-arming is in no way an endorsement of it.

 

[ska invita]

Do others agree with this? In as far as people have expressed any opinion about Europe re-arming on this thread (not very far), there has been some negativity too. The above presents something like the establishment view. But I'd like to hear the counter-arguments.

heres some counterarguments off the top of my head:

Who is Europe re-arming against? Presumably Russia and Russia only. Is there a threat from Russia?
We are not privy to the intelligence states get, but my impression is there is no threat. My understanding is Ukraine invasion was the last straw taken by Russia rather than the first step of a new empire heading west. The extent of the threat is its own big topic - hard to have it though without highest level intelligence and mainstream news propaganda to go on.

But for the sake of it lets say there is a degree of threat. Threats can be disarmed through diplomacy as well as militarily. I read that the incoming government n Germany plans to pursue that path. I even heard there's a rumour they will fix Nord stream . There are myriad ways peace can be achieved through diplomacy.

But for the sake of it lets say that isnt enough and there needs to be a military backstop. The first step, it would seem to me, is not spend more because the USA says so, but work out a European military pact to replace NATO.

Once that is done then theres taking stock of all the weapons that already exist. Theres already shit tons of them. Then there's the issue of what money can be save by getting rid of crap like Trident. There's a hundred billion right there. Then there's the issue of what you actually need. Articles I've read over the years about procurement sound like arms dealers and military procurement might as well be being done by ..... criminals and incompetents with corruption off the scale.

and then what about stopping doing competitive capitalism and imperial expansionism and taking part in politics that uplifts humanity, is cooperative and stops the need for competition, diffuses nationalisms, diffuses fascistic impulses... Ill save my breath - they'll tax us and spend it on bullshit weapons and make war seem inevitable - a self fulfilling prophecy

 

[Serge Forward]

and then what about stopping doing competitive capitalism and imperial expansionism and taking part in politics that uplifts humanity, is cooperative and stops the need for competition, diffuses nationalisms, diffuses fascistic impulses...

We'll need a revolution before any of that happens.

 

[PTK]

Not really. I would hope our neutrality stays strong.
Irish troops in groups of more than 12 cannot be deployed abroad without approval from cabinet, the Dáil and a resolution from the United Nations’ Security Council. The three-step approval is known as the ‘Triple Lock’..Irish troops have served as part of UN peacekeeping missions but nowhere else.

This has been the case up to now. However there is a proposal due next week to remove the triple lock system..I am hopefully it will not go through. Unfortunately the current leadership is a bit ambitious in terms of Europe..but I would think the vast majority of Irish people want us to remain neutral and want us to stay out of Nato.

Troops from the Republic of Ireland would not be acceptable as peacekeepers between the Russian Federtion and Ukraine, as EU membership makes it party to the dispute.