Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

EU - vote now

Stay in the EU?

  • Yes - Stay in

    Votes: 70 65.4%
  • No - get out

    Votes: 37 34.6%

  • Total voters
    107
What exactly do you mean by sovereignty? Can you explain it in the context of what has been happening since Ireland joined the EU?
What exactly do you have in mind? By sovereignty, I mean independent control of your own internal affairs. Britain plainly doesn't have this while it's in the EU.
Also, did you know that the Lisbon treaty, for the first time in any treaty, provides the mechanisms by which a member state can leave the EU???
I did, and we should exercise it.
so, by voting NO you are voting away the thing that you (probably) want :rolleyes:
I've not expressed an opinion on the Lisbon Treaty, although I suspect the flame isn't worth the candle. There are other ways of leaving.
Well it's gradually gone that way, not going towards 'equality' (each time the voting rules change they've gone more towards giving the bigger countries extra power - or more specifically voting strength has gone towards populations). I think the smaller countries kinda accept it due to the economic rewards the EU gives them plus the bigger burden for the budget falls on the bigger countries.
What happens when some of the new countries become economic powers in their own right? This can't be balanced forever!
 
I've not expressed an opinion on the Lisbon Treaty,

oh sorry, above you said you voted no. i presumed this meant you voted no to Lisbon.

There are other ways of leaving.

so, do you want to leave?

What happens when some of the new countries become powers in their own right? This can't be balanced forever!

what is this supposed to mean? Ireland went from one of the poorest member to one of the richest because of its EU membership but this hasn't changed it's "power" over other countries
 
What exactly do you mean by sovereignty? Can you explain it in the context of what has been happening since Ireland joined the EU?

Also, did you know that the Lisbon treaty, for the first time in any treaty, provides the mechanisms by which a member state can leave the EU???

so, by voting NO you are voting away the thing that you (probably) want :rolleyes:

I am not up on Irish constitutional arrangements, but until the Lisbon treaty is ratified, the UK could leave the EU by repealing the 1972 European Communities Act, this could be done by purely by UK parliament, which therefore has sovereignty. After Lisbon, would require the permission of other member states, which given that the UK is one of the principal financiers of the EU, there would be a good of reluctance in getting those permissions. What you saying about lies and untruths.

Ah yes, looking at that flier, nope there isn't anything about abortion nor corporation tax within the Treaty of Lisbon, nor was there last time the Irish in accordance with the Treaty of Rome killed this treaty. There is alot on extending QMV, making it harder for Eire to prevent things coming in they don't like. But as Irish objections count for fuck all anyway, (they already said no) as did the French and Dutch when they were publicly consulted, probably won't make much difference:hmm: Bringing in cheap labour, also not Lisbon that's existing treaties, but that shouldn't matter anyway, coz if they have planning like we have planning, no heavy industry will ever get built in future. Lavel and Viking cases give NIMBY's the added string to their bow of "it is unlawful to guarantee that any jobs created go to members of the local community".

As for how much say UK has, depends how you define the UK. Government has quite lot, and uses to push through stuff that they don't want democratic scrutiny of. I suppose the public does get to chose which party governs, but then two of the major parties didn't feel bound by their only manifesto commitment with regard the EU. Some things are obviously far important to involve the public, they must be, I'd put money on NO OTHER AREA OF STATE SPENDING HAVING A 60% INCREASE IN THE NEXT 5 YEARS.
 
What happens when some of the new countries become economic powers in their own right? This can't be balanced forever!
I said bigger countries as in populations. Voting is weighted by population not GDP or whatever. It just happens that the bigger populations tend to have the bigger economies and if you saw the trends the other day the UK is set to have the largest population in the EU (as ours expands and Germany's declines) which means we'll have the most votes and the most MEPs!
 
I'm not so much up for getting out in itself. It's just that there are matters of the programme I advocate that would likely raise calls for our expulsion at some point. Stuff over drugs, immigration, the way the banks work, the way government supports enterprise. I'd not want a drama over it, and just let the matter take its course. I wouldn't be on my knees begging the EU to allow us to stay in.
 
I'm not so much up for getting out in itself. It's just that there are matters of the programme I advocate that would likely raise calls for our expulsion at some point. Stuff over drugs, immigration, the way the banks work, the way government supports enterprise. I'd not want a drama over it, and just let the matter take its course. I wouldn't be on my knees begging the EU to allow us to stay in.



Fortunately, you'll never have to face this kind of conflict.
 
The Germans all speak second language english, as do the French, they can trade with each other quite easily.

We, the Brits however speak first language english and this is not compatible with second language english as for example it contains a lot more than the minimum required words present in second language english (SLE).

Hence for a Frenchman to do business in Germany he only needs to travel there and speak SLE which will be perfectly understood by the German who is also fluent in SLE.

If we want to do business in Germany, our first language english is not ideal, we really need, and need to prove we have made an effort, to speak German.

So the Frenchman gets around Europe with SLE but we the english have to learn all the languages.
 
Yea but then the rest of Europe would set the laws that we have to abide by, and we'd have no say in it which doesn't seem particularly beneficial to a country with our economic size...

So no different from any other market we export to then?

If we want to export goods to America, India, China, South Ameria, Pakistan don't we have to abide by their laws that we have no say in?
 
Fortunately, you'll never have to face this kind of conflict.
That's true I suppose. Aside from the abhorrence towards my evil scheming, the electorate's fear of loss (of membership) outweighs their enthusiasm for the speculative gains from withdrawal.
 
So no different from any other market we export to then?

If we want to export goods to America, India, China, South Ameria, Pakistan don't we have to abide by their laws that we have no say in?
We aren't forced to incorporate their laws into our own laws tho are we?
 
so, do you want to leave [the EU]?
Yes, I think Britain should leave.
what is this supposed to mean? Ireland went from one of the poorest member to one of the richest because of its EU membership but this hasn't changed it's "power" over other countries
It means that internal tensions can't be balanced forever, not unless sovereignty is diminished with "ever closer Union". Problem is that we don't have a shared culture and language like the USA. Just witness the trouble Canada has staying together with two languages! How will the EU fare?
I said bigger countries as in populations. Voting is weighted by population not GDP or whatever. It just happens that the bigger populations tend to have the bigger economies and if you saw the trends the other day the UK is set to have the largest population in the EU (as ours expands and Germany's declines) which means we'll have the most votes and the most MEPs!
Sorry for the mistake. :)

It does point to a potential problem though, in that economic power and population won't necessarily continue to tally. The wider issue is that there's so many competing interests in the EU that it seems bound to fracture sooner or later. What if we do outstrip Germany? Will the Germans (and reasonably enough) be happy about that?
 
Sorry for the mistake. :)

It does point to a potential problem though, in that economic power and population won't necessarily continue to tally. The wider issue is that there's so many competing interests in the EU that it seems bound to fracture sooner or later. What if we do outstrip Germany? Will the Germans (and reasonably enough) be happy about that?
Well they outstrip us now and due to their bigger population have (slightly) more votes in Council and MEPs in Parliament than we do...are we happy? Are we demanding Germany relinquishes their advantage?
 
Well they outstrip us now and due to their bigger population have (slightly) more votes in Council and MEPs in Parliament than we do...are we happy? Are we demanding Germany relinquishes their advantage?
Not in particular, since the debate (wrongly, in my view) lumps the Continent together. The German people I've spoken to about this don't follow suit. They're mostly concerned with keeping balance between them and France, but I got the impression they expected their two countries to be at the heart of the EU.

And why not? It's perfectly natural to want to protect and promote your national interest. That's the issue with the EU. It's 27 separate nations pulled together. Given the barriers in language and culture it's inconceivable that they'll become one country, and in that case, there's a limit to how much sovereignty people are willing to concede. A free-trade/customs union block would be reasonable. The EU goes far beyond that, and by it was falsely advertised to the British in those terms. Perhaps the Trade Descriptions Act can be invoked? ;)
 
Not in particular, since the debate (wrongly, in my view) lumps the Continent together. The German people I've spoken to about this don't follow suit. They're mostly concerned with keeping balance between them and France, but I got the impression they expected their two countries to be at the heart of the EU.

And why not? It's perfectly natural to want to protect and promote your national interest. That's the issue with the EU. It's 27 separate nations pulled together. Given the barriers in language and culture it's inconceivable that they'll become one country, and in that case, there's a limit to how much sovereignty people are willing to concede. A free-trade/customs union block would be reasonable. The EU goes far beyond that, and by it was falsely advertised to the British in those terms. Perhaps the Trade Descriptions Act can be invoked? ;)
Well for a start nobody wants it to be a "country"! And also the evolution of the EU had a lot of political cooperation, it was never just a trade agreement.

But at the end of the day, my (simplistic) argument for the EU is that the problems associated with some policy areas simply cannot be overcome by a single state. The EU is the best tool we have to meet some of the challenges we face and to be honest I'd say some of the political issues are better dealt with at European level than some of the economic issues...
 
I think you might have different agendas of what challenges we face.
Do you mean 'ideas' not 'agendas'? ;)

Well what would you say are the major challenges? Which policy areas does the EU cover you think would be better done at national level?
 
It seems odd that on a left-leaning message board a majority of people can favour remaining in an organisation that primarily serves as a bulwark against socialism.
 
It seems odd that on a left-leaning message board a majority of people can favour remaining in an organisation that primarily serves as a bulwark against socialism.
Heh not according to Tory types! According to them it's a socialist conspiracy to take over the UK!

Can't both be right!
 
Well for a start nobody wants it to be a "country"! And also the evolution of the EU had a lot of political cooperation, it was never just a trade agreement.

But at the end of the day, my (simplistic) argument for the EU is that the problems associated with some policy areas simply cannot be overcome by a single state. The EU is the best tool we have to meet some of the challenges we face and to be honest I'd say some of the political issues are better dealt with at European level than some of the economic issues...
I wouldn't say that nobody wants the EU to be a country. Even if it's not said outright, this is the ultimate consequence of "ever closer union" and increased legal harmonisation. If it doesn't get that far, the Union will eventually fracture. One or the other, it seems, but not both.

I agree nations must co-operate. This is what we have treaties for. As it's not a choice between isolationism and the EU, the issue isn't co-operation in general, but the EU in particular. The merits of this specific organisation can be separated from wider issues.
 
I wouldn't say that nobody wants the EU to be a country. Even if it's not said outright, this is the ultimate consequence of "ever closer union" and increased legal harmonisation. If it doesn't get that far, the Union will eventually fracture. One or the other, it seems, but not both.
Ok well nobody in power anywhere wants the EU to be a country

I agree nations must co-operate. This is what we have treaties for. As it's not a choice between isolationism and the EU, the issue isn't co-operation in general, but the EU in particular. The merits of this specific organisation can be separated from wider issues.
Unfortunately treaties are often not worth the paper they're written on (just off the top of my head look at how America tear up ballistic missile treaties when it's no longer in their interests). Treaties aren't enforceable by law unless your country has a massive bank account or a massive army (again, that's why Israel doesn't have to apply by international treaties but Iraq does)

The EU sets laws which member states have to abide by (unless in exceptions they have special permission not to).

Look at the problems the world is having agreeing an environmental treaty to combat climate change. America doesn't want anything to do with it cos it will cost their industries too much money. The third world don't want anything to do with it because they can't afford the technology (I'm simplifying before any climate experts correct me). However, we need a climate agreement to protect the environment. But it will never be enforceable and therefore even if there is an agreement countries will pull out when it suits them and then the whole thing falls apart because it is dependent on everyone abiding by the agreements. In the EU it is different because once that agreement goes into place it becomes an enforceable law which countries cannot pull out of and therefore cannot be sabotaged.

This applies to all EU policy areas and it means one country can't undercut standards that harm everyone else
 
The EU sets laws which member states have to abide by (unless in exceptions they have special permission not to).
Unless the EU has its own army then its not substantially different to a treaty. Britain, France, Germany, or any other country, is free to ignore EU law, and the EU can't bring them into line by force. It could impose sanctions, but that could be included in a treaty.

So why do we need the EU?
 
Unless the EU has its own army then its not substantially different to a treaty. Britain, France, Germany, or any other country, is free to ignore EU law, and the EU can't bring them into line by force. It could impose sanctions, but that could be included in a treaty.
Well a country that breaks EU law is fined, which doesn't actually happen against all countries that ignore treaties (how many Western countries currently have sanctions against Israel? None)

But more than that the EU laws become incorporated in national law, so it's not the same as having some magical faraway ruling that we pretend to abide by, they actually evolve into Acts of Parliament which doesn't happen with treaties which also means EU laws won't be "ignored"

The fact is, whether you think they are or not, EU laws are adhered to with very rare exceptions whereas international treaties are often ignored - if they can be agreed in the first place (which is another advantage of the EU in that it provides a successful mechanism for discussing and agreeing laws in the first place)
 
But more than that the EU laws become incorporated in national law, so it's not the same as having some magical faraway ruling that we pretend to abide by, they actually evolve into Acts of Parliament which doesn't happen with treaties which also means EU laws won't be "ignored"
From what I remember of constitutional law, treaties have weight in domestic law as they're signed by the PM, using the Royal Prerogative on behalf of the Queen. If this isn't so, domestic law can be altered to give treaties equal weight to Acts of Parliament.

I still see no substantive difference between treaties or the EU. Even if there was, it needn't be an argument for continuing in the Eurozone. It could equally be an argument for creating a new free trade organisation to supplement, and maybe ultimately to replace, the EU.
 
From what I remember of constitutional law, treaties have weight in domestic law as they're signed by the PM, using the Royal Prerogative on behalf of the Queen. If this isn't so, domestic law can be altered to give treaties equal weight to Acts of Parliament.
Well with respect the issue isn't how we abide by treaties but how we want others to abide by treaties...

I still see no substantive difference between treaties or the EU. Even if there was, it needn't be an argument for continuing in the Eurozone. It could equally be an argument for creating a new free trade organisation to supplement, and maybe ultimately to replace, the EU.
Well now the argument has gone full circle because the answer to that is we'd have to incorporate EU laws (set by other countries if we drop out) into our own laws like Norway has to. The only way that would be avoided is if the EU was disbanded altogether and that's not likely nor is it desirable.
 
Do you mean 'ideas' not 'agendas'?
Not necessarily. I could entertain you want the same things with different priorities and caveats.
Well what would you say are the major challenges? Which policy areas does the EU cover you think would be better done at national level?
The challenges exist only to the extent there also exists a discernable “public interest” or “common good”. I follow in the tradition of Olson and Arrow in questioning the applicability of those concepts. At the same time, I imagine the challenge facing the herd, characterised as they are by status-anxiety, is the maintenance of the prevailing order of their lives, stability, the continued reinforcement of their beliefs and values. In 1973, the referendum played on the fear of loss of food, money and jobs. Within prevailing institutions, whether we’re in-or-out is an each way gamble.

Now, what does social policy mean? It’s really a matter of law and, if you choose to regard it apart from the law, investment priorities. If pressed to advocate a position, I’d punt for neighbourhood assemblies as the sole institutions of law, ordering up fiat capital from a monopoly investment bank to fund self managed enterprises. That obviously runs counter to the European project with its essentially monetarist central bank and absurd prohibitions that only exist to absolve national governments from blame for their daft regulations. However, if you’re the sort of person who admires the European take on this-or-that, say the working time directive or what not, then I can see how you could adopt an opportunistic Europhilia.
 
The challenges exist only to the extent there also exists a discernable “public interest” or “common good”. I follow in the tradition of Olson and Arrow in questioning the applicability of those concepts. At the same time, I imagine the challenge facing the herd, characterised as they are by status-anxiety, is the maintenance of the prevailing order of their lives, stability, the continued reinforcement of their beliefs and values. In 1973, the referendum played on the fear of loss of food, money and jobs. Within prevailing institutions, whether we’re in-or-out is an each way gamble.

Now, what does social policy mean? It’s really a matter of law and, if you choose to regard it apart from the law, investment priorities. If pressed to advocate a position, I’d punt for neighbourhood assemblies as the sole institutions of law, ordering up fiat capital from a monopoly investment bank to fund self managed enterprises. That obviously runs counter to the European project with its essentially monetarist central bank and absurd prohibitions that only exist to absolve national governments from blame for their daft regulations. However, if you’re the sort of person who admires the European take on this-or-that, say the working time directive or what not, then I can see how you could adopt an opportunistic Europhilia.
Sorry mate no idea what any of that's supposed to mean...
 
If pressed to advocate a position, I’d punt for neighbourhood assemblies as the sole institutions of law, ordering up fiat capital from a monopoly investment bank to fund self managed enterprises. That obviously runs counter to the European project with its essentially monetarist central bank and absurd prohibitions that only exist to absolve national governments from blame for their daft regulations.



You can advocate any old cobblers when you're just one bloke sitting behind a keyboard, though, can't you?
 
Sorry mate no idea what any of that's supposed to mean...
Oh come on. In 1973, the referendum played on the fear of loss of food, money and jobs. Within prevailing institutions, whether we’re in-or-out is an each way gamble. You've got to understand that bit at least.
 
Back
Top Bottom