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Englishness/Britishness and the Left

IMR said:
Something determines the mix though. People don't passively swallow everything that comes along their way.

They adopt, accept, reject, combine and make new things in ways which their own culture will influence.
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of course. Why that happens is the interesting bit, imo. In Britains case it is a simple* matter of its historical legacy of imperialism. Would that be summat we wanted to celebrate?


* oh, okay, quite complex really.
 
belboid said:
of course. Why that happens is the interesting bit, imo. In Britains case it is a simple* matter of its historical legacy of imperialism. Would that be summat we wanted to celebrate?


* oh, okay, quite complex really.
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it's not about where you're from, it's about where you're going
 
articul8 said:
Well, yes and no. Though I disagree with this progressive English nationalism stuff, there is a sense (which is likely to grow if there's further moves to indepence in Scotland) that the English don't have something positive to "claim" as their identity. It's becoming more of an issue. I'm not saying it should be foundational - I'm saying that it might be useful, if we are to avoid a situation where the interest of workers in England, Scotland and Wales are to be played off against each other, to have a viable and attractive sense of agency over our own national identity which meant that we were perfectly comfortable with being working class and English/Scottish/Welsh while also being at the same time British and European citizens.
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The thing is, even if i accept your position that this would be a good thing, you can't just wish it into existance if you think it 'might be useful.' It either exists as an objective factor, or you must suggest campaigning for a greater sense of English nationhood. And I really can't see on what grounds this would be based on - other than 'we're not Scottish/Welsh'.

articul8 said:
PS on political unionism - from the perspective of Scotland it most certainly does exist and Labour, Libs and Tories are keen advocates of it. How does a pro-British, pro-devolution perspective differentiate itself from the colonial attitude of a London based ruling class?
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Pro devolution?
 
on the upside america just nationalised their banks and car industry

it's all a big plot to show people why politics is shit imo
 
So, as I understand it, our Celtic cousins have their jealousy of the English that unites them, whereas we don't have any single factor which defines our national identity.

Who cares?
 
Random said:
The thing is, even if i accept your position that this would be a good thing, you can't just wish it into existance if you think it 'might be useful.' It either exists as an objective factor, or you must suggest campaigning for a greater sense of English nationhood.
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The crisis of Britishness exists - so at least the grounds for its meaning to be contested and rethought exist. To that extent it is there as an "objective factor". Ok it needs someone to do the contesting (the subjective factor)and at the moment it has less traction than the attempt to reclaim "Englishness". But for reasons I think we agree on, I don't see the latter as being desirable, even if it were possible which I doubt it is.

People do want a sense of belonging and commitment that narratives of class struggle don't - at least at the moment - satisfy. I'm not saying that we concentrate on building an alternative idea of Britishness instead of fighting for better social conditions etc. But if it would help to build ties of solidarity on a basis that is not ethnically or racially exclusive, wouldn't it be a useful tool to at least contest groups like the BNP on their own ground. Not a "choose class over nation" ultimatum but "we are just as British as you, in fact have more in common with fellow "Brits" eg in Bradford or Bangor, Glasgow or Golders Green than your "indigenous peoples" bullshit - and because we stand together, working people in Britain understand that we need to fight in the interest of our class...


Pro devolution?
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In the sense that we accept that there needs to be a very healthy dose of autonomy in Scotland and Wales - and for that matter the English regions to some extent- from the colonial metropolis.
 
articul8 said:
People do want a sense of belonging and commitment that narratives of class struggle don't - at least at the moment - satisfy. I'm not saying that we concentrate on building an alternative idea of Britishness instead of fighting for better social conditions etc. But if it would help to build ties of solidarity on a basis that is not ethnically or racially exclusive, wouldn't it be a useful tool to at least contest groups like the BNP on their own ground. Not a "choose class over nation" ultimatum but "we are just as British as you, in fact have more in common with fellow "Brits" eg in Bradford or Bangor, Glasgow or Golders Green than your "indigenous peoples" bullshit - and because we stand together, working people in Britain understand that we need to fight in the interest of our class...
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I suppose on the one hadn this just sounds like the old idea of falling back on culture, on identity politics, because of the percieved failure of class politics, that so much of the left has been talking about recently.

But that's when this is presented as a 'new project'. I'm sure that ideas of Britishness and Englishness have come up during recent campaigning by groups like the IWCA, and from the recent Lindsay andother refinery strikes.

So, to turn it around - what aspects of debate and ideas around Britishness and (especially?) Englishness have been coming up recently, and what can we make of it? Starting from concrete on the ground experience rather than strategising in a vaccum would be the way to start imo.

Still not sure I'm with you on the whole idea that Welsh and Scottish workers are going to have it better. If anything the presence of their respective local nationalist ruling classess are going to make things harder for independent working class action.
 
And what's all this 'colonial metropolis' stuff, anyway. It sounds like something from a FRIFI pamphlet :D
 
Britain does exist geographically I always thought - it's the island that Scotland, Wales and England are on (as opposed to the British Isles archipelago) - from the old Welsh Prydain isn't it?
 
articul8 said:
Coming from an English working class family of Irish descent, I'm not exactly well disposed towards the British state. So from that point of view I undestand why Scots and Welsh Nats would be keen on furthering an identity that hasn't been constructed under the auspices of an imperial power.

But in the context where Scottish identity and Welsh identity seem to be on the up, this leaves a gap for the English in terms of national identity. Clearly a lot of English nationalists a just populist right wingers who resent the lack of a parliament where they rule the roost without those nasty lefties over the boarded (kind of a domesticated UKIP). And then you've got "lefts" like Billy Bragg and Mark Perryman wanting to reclaim "Englishness" as potentially progressive.

But when I was growing up the ties of political solidarity didn't bind "the English" - there was no "English" at the time of the Miners Strike, really - communities in the north had much more in common with the Welsh and the Scots than with Maggie's lot in the SE and home counties.

But in the absence of a sense of the political immediacy of class identity, wouldn't Scots and Welsh nationalism merely leave the power of the political elite London (or City/Wesminster to be more accurate) even more strongly in place over workers in England.

How can the English w/c respond? In the relative absence of class identity as an organising principle, what alternatives exist to the (losing) battle over "Englishness"? Would it be possible or desirable to construct a "Britishness from Below" - at a critical distance from the British state and not based on colonial power relations but a genuinely pluralist platform - a kind of proto socialist federation of the British Isles, maybe with greater regional autonomy within England itself?
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Non-problem, made up problem. No need to do anything.
 
It's an interesting point, and one that I raised about how effective it is in using the Union Jack at protests. It reminds me of the Grateful Dead line, 'Wave your Flag wave it high and pride', which is representative of the US counter culture trying to reclaim the Iconography of the Stars and Stripes from military jingoism.

Why should the Fash get to own all of our culture icons? There is a radical English folk tradition, which is as much about what being ‘English’ is as anything else! Just listen to working class folk songs and they are extremely anti-authoritarian . Every other song is about someone being unfairly hanged for crossing some rich bugger or for sleeping with a rich buggers wife.

The distinction that needs to be made is between English culture, and the false notion of a Imperialistic Nation State that is written for us through us through the process of commemoration and tradition.

Yes to reclaiming our radical culture heritage and the true meaning of being English! No to outdated notions of nation states! – Catchy chant.

To be honest if the left in this country tried to do this rather than bashin nationalism we wouldn't be in such a mess.
 
moon23 said:
It's an interesting point, and one that I raised about how effective it is in using the Union Jack at protests. It reminds me of the Grateful Dead line, 'Wave your Flag wave it high and pride', which is representative of the US counter culture trying to reclaim the Iconography of the Stars and Stripes from military jingoism.
.
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That means wave your freak flag high not the stars and stripes surely?
 
moon23 said:
It's an interesting point, and one that I raised about how effective it is in using the Union Jack at protests. It reminds me of the Grateful Dead line, 'Wave your Flag wave it high and pride', which is representative of the US counter culture trying to reclaim the Iconography of the Stars and Stripes from military jingoism.

Why should the Fash get to own all of our culture icons? There is a radical English folk tradition, which is as much about what being ‘English’ is as anything else! Just listen to working class folk songs and they are extremely anti-authoritarian . Every other song is about someone being unfairly hanged for crossing some rich bugger or for sleeping with a rich buggers wife.

The distinction that needs to be made is between English culture, and the false notion of a Imperialistic Nation State that is written for us through us through the process of commemoration and tradition.

Yes to reclaiming our radical culture heritage and the true meaning of being English! No to outdated notions of nation states! – Catchy chant.

To be honest if the left in this country tried to do this rather than bashin nationalism we wouldn't be in such a mess.
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The Union Jack isn't the English flag though.
 
butchersapron said:
Non-problem, made up problem. No need to do anything.
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So say the Tories win the next election - the Scots might well face an independence referendum and the Welsh will be fighting tooth and nail for Welsh autonomy from British driven cuts.

But will they link up with each other and the English working class - or concentrate on what they can gain locally, by furthering moves towards separate national status?

Isn't the latter likely to lead to an upswing in "English" nationalism(s)?
 
articul8 said:
So say the Tories win the next election - the Scots might well face an independence referendum and the Welsh will be fighting tooth and nail for Welsh autonomy from British driven cuts.

But will they link up with each other and the English working class - or concentrate on what they can gain locally, by furthering moves towards separate national status?

Isn't the latter likely to lead to an upswing in "English" nationalism(s)?
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Thry won't because that's not what they'e there for. Asking them to or inventing something to act in their place is bizzare. It's a total non-problem.
 
articul8 said:
what isn't what who is there for? I'm not following you
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Wales and Scotland have developed their civic nationalists parties out of their own condtiions. a) Those condtions don't apply in England and b) there's no need to copy what happens elsewhere anyway - 250 years of w/c political organisation without developing a significant left-english nationalism tells its own story. No need. Do we need a FARC because they have one in Colombia?
 
London_Calling said:
I can't buy into the notion at the best of times but others do, and the problem I see with 'Englishness' not being defined in progressive terms is it leaves a vacuum.
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Agree with that.
I think part of the problem is that the media try and get the message over that to be patriotic you have to be god send the queen tory type.
But England is a country that has a proud history. English people have done some great things.
England is one of the best countries in the world to live in. Personally i think patriotism can be a very good thing, caring about the people around you is a good thing. Cant stand the England football team or the monarchy though.
 
But I'm not arguing we need a left English civic nationalism - quite the contrary.

I'm saying that in the context of a Tory government undermining ties of class solidarity between Scots/Welsh due to nationalist response and links from both to English w/c there is a space for rebuilding pan-British class solidarity from below and that raises the question of how this relates to calls from the right (mostly) for an English nationalism.
 
articul8 said:
But I'm not arguing we need a left English civic nationalism - quite the contrary.

I'm saying that in the context of a Tory government undermining ties of class solidarity between Scots/Welsh due to nationalist response and links from both to English w/c there is a space for rebuilding pan-British class solidarity from below and that raises the question of how this relates to calls from the right (mostly) for an English nationalism.
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Well the OP sure looks like you are. The last para especially. It's that last para which is asking questions about a non-exsistent problem.
 
How can the English w/c respond? In the relative absence of class identity as an organising principle, what alternatives exist to the (losing) battle over "Englishness"? Would it be possible or desirable to construct a "Britishness from Below" - at a critical distance from the British state and not based on colonial power relations but a genuinely pluralist platform - a kind of proto socialist federation of the British Isles, maybe with greater regional autonomy within England itself?
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no - the problem would arguably be most sharply posed for the english w/c - but what I was talking about was an alternative to a left English nationalism ie rebuilding ties of class solidarity across this Island in a context where nationalist politics would in some respects pit divide Scots and Welsh from those English workers struggling against a Tory govt.

I was asking whether Britishness would always seem like the stamp of the ruling class or whether there was scope for contesting and restructuring our notion of Britishness eg. ulimately culminating in a socialist federation of Britain?
 
it's an idiotic quetion imo

you know, go for it,

english identity at the moment is shit like harry potter, queen elizabeth and david beckham. you want to change english identity do something about it don't pretend it's politics
 
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