Englishness/Britishness and the Left

[belboid]

It's such a weird and historically very recent concept: eighteenth-century,post Act of Union. Geographically, all of Ireland is part of "Britain," as is Brittany.

Wrong. Geographically Ireland is part of the British Isles. Brittany is quite seperate, as illustrated by the fact that it consists largely of Precambrian rock strata, rare in Britain. Of course they were once connected, but so were most places.

'Britain' does not exist, geographically. tho there is 'Britain' (England & Wales) and Great britain (E,W & Scotland)

 

[teuchter]

I find it helps to post this diagram in these situations:

 

[isitme]

i've heard mogwai, they were ok, pretty boring, it all sounds like the beginning of a pink floyd song

most people haven't, there aren't any scottish or welsh bands like the rolling stones or led zeppelin or the beatles who everyone in the world knows, and there isn't any type of music like jungle or dubstep which come from and sound like those countries

it isn't even an insult to those countries it's just the truth, same as how belgium have their own culture but they haven't exported it succesfully cos they are small countries and not like england or france or germany

people in the far east don't know anything about wales or scotland they just think it's part of england, same as how english people have no idea about the different nationalities in the philipinnes or indonesia.....

 

[teuchter]

there is 'Britain' (England & Wales)

On what do you base this?

 

[isitme]

or even india despite england and india having hunreds of years of shared history

 

[isitme]

unless their family is from india

 

[teuchter]

i've heard mogwai, they were ok, pretty boring, it all sounds like the beginning of a pink floyd song

most people haven't, there aren't any scottish or welsh bands like the rolling stones or led zeppelin or the beatles who everyone in the world knows, and there isn't any type of music like jungle or dubstep which come from and sound like those countries

it isn't even an insult to those countries it's just the truth, same as how belgium have their own culture but they haven't exported it succesfully cos they are small countries and not like england or france or germany

people in the far east don't know anything about wales or scotland they just think it's part of england, same as how english people have no idea about the different nationalities in the philipinnes or indonesia.....

Are you trying to claim Jungle and Dubstep are products of English culture?

They are products of the cosmopolitan culture of London, which little of provincial England shares.

 

[isitme]

Are you trying to claim Jungle and Dubstep are products of English culture?

They are products of the cosmopolitan culture of London, which little of provincial England shares.

yes they are part of english culture. they came from london in england

are you thick?

 

[teuchter]

yes they are part of english culture. they came from london in england

are you thick?

London in Britain.

London which became what it is because of the British Empire; not the English Empire.

There is a reason why many Jamaicans have Scottish surnames you know.

This is a silly argument of course but at least get your history right.

 

[belboid]

english culture is great

compare our pop music with music from italy or germany or france, there just isn't a comparison. their output since the 60s is like a couple of years in england

same with pubs. i'm always explaining to chinese people how you can just go to the pub on your own and chat shit with people and not even get drunk, just have a beer

it's not the basis for anything tho. i mean, it is part of our identity, but it's all fluid, my idea of england is totally different to it was 10 years ago and it'll be different in another 10 years....

how is most of that Englsh tho, as opposed to British (which could be stretched to include much of Ireland). Even most music emanating from England borrows heavily from other cultural forms, so can it really be said to be 'English' culture?

 

[belboid]

On what do you base this?

on that bit of your diagram with England and Wales in.

It's what Great Britain was called before the Act of Union, when the Scots made it Great.

 

[isitme]

see i wouldn't care if they changed the name to britain, england is the main part of britain, it's just words anyway. people from london and swansea would still be twats if they called themselves french....

it's like how scotland and wales don't give us their best football players even tho that means they never get to play in the world cup. and ireland get to play in the world cup cos the irish shagged a lot of cockneys in ww2

 

[articul8]

Nationhood isn't a good thing in and of itself. Some people feel they have it, some don't. It's not a particularly big deal for many people in England, so why bother trying to make it into the foundation of a political strategy?

Well, yes and no. Though I disagree with this progressive English nationalism stuff, there is a sense (which is likely to grow if there's further moves to indepence in Scotland) that the English don't have something positive to "claim" as their identity. It's becoming more of an issue. I'm not saying it should be foundational - I'm saying that it might be useful, if we are to avoid a situation where the interest of workers in England, Scotland and Wales are to be played off against each other, to have a viable and attractive sense of agency over our own national identity which meant that we were perfectly comfortable with being working class and English/Scottish/Welsh while also being at the same time British and European citizens.

PS on political unionism - from the perspective of Scotland it most certainly does exist and Labour, Libs and Tories are keen advocates of it. How does a pro-British, pro-devolution perspective differentiate itself from the colonial attitude of a London based ruling class?

 

[teuchter]

It's what Great Britain was called before the Act of Union,

Was it?

 

[isitme]

how is most of that Englsh tho, as opposed to British (which could be stretched to include much of Ireland). Even most music emanating from England borrows heavily from other cultural forms, so can it really be said to be 'English' culture?

most of the best english music comes from the fact that it's a mix of american influences and lots of other cultures bringing their own thing to the mix

it's very english or british. you wouldn't get some mix like a jewwish indian guy making reggae music in saudi arabia etc

 

[teuchter]

see i wouldn't care if they changed the name to britain, england is the main part of britain, it's just words anyway. people from london and swansea would still be twats if they called themselves french....

It would be easier to rename provincial England as London [zone Z], seeing as London is the part that most people have heard of.

 

[belboid]

it's very english or british. you wouldn't get some mix like a jewwish indian guy making reggae music in saudi arabia etc

so, the thing that makes it 'English' is the fact that it originates from everywhere apart from England? Ace

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Nationhood isn't a good thing in and of itself. Some people feel they have it, some don't. It's not a particularly big deal for many people in England, so why bother trying to make it into the foundation of a political strategy?

because nationhood is often the basis for genuine change around progressive ideas - France in the early days at least in theory for instance.

I would contend that we were far less of a nation in the 1800s than France or the USA. It was all about The Queen and The Empire and the Class System, all of which preclude genuine nationhood.



Because of that British and particularly English people tend to equate nationalism with ethnic nationalism (Plaid Cymru and the SNP though are genuine civic nationalist parties), and thus eschew it.

 

[belboid]

Was it?

hmmm, i tought so...from the Roman province of (almost) that name...

 

[IMR]

so, the thing that makes it 'English' is the fact that it originates from everywhere apart from England? Ace

Something determines the mix though. People don't passively swallow everything that comes along their way.

They adopt, accept, reject, combine and make new things in ways which their own culture will influence.

 

[isitme]

It would be easier to rename provincial England as London [zone Z], seeing as London is the part that most people have heard of.

london is a city not a country that would just be confusing if you called all of the cities the same name, it would be a nightmare driving on the A1

 

[STFC]

None of that is "English culture" though. It's British if anything. Probably includes Ireland too.

And musicwise, you'd probably find the celtic nations you so despise to be disproportionately represented.

Balls. All they've given us are the Cranberries, Stereophonics and Prefab Sprout.

 

[isitme]

so, the thing that makes it 'English' is the fact that it originates from everywhere apart from England? Ace

well like i said, the mixture of cultures is very english

there aren't many cities on earth like london where you have people from all over the world living together

new york is another example. the stuff that comes from new york like hiphop and punk comes from that mixture, but it's very american

 

[isitme]

Balls. All they've given us are the Cranberries, Stereophonics and Prefab Sprout.

prefab sprout are from the north east

 

[belboid]

I fink he meant Wet Wet Wet

 

[teuchter]

well like i said, the mixture of cultures is very english

You're actually Boris Johnson aren't you.

 

[isitme]

scag scag scag

 

[isitme]

You're actually Boris Johnson aren't you.

yes, i am boris johnson

 

[STFC]

prefab sprout are from the north east

I know.

On urban you always get people saying 'Well people in newcastle are more Scottish than English', but I've asked loads of people from up here this question and they all say it's total shash, they're English and very much so. I think it's just navel gazing rubbish really....

 

[isitme]

the animals