English Grammar question? Sorry....

[scifisam]

Then why 'France'?
Calling it 'the Lebanon' sounds like you think it still a colony, a geographical designation ('the Levant') or a geographical territory ('the Algarve'), rather than a nation state.

That doesn't quite work either, since there are lots of colonies, geographical designations and other small territories that don't take the definite article. I wondered if it was something to do with the state being established for a certain amount of time, but that doesn't fit either, since no-one says 'the Kosovo.'

With France I could say that it's because it was called France long before it was a Republic, but in reality I'll probably say that whether a country has 'the' or not is partly defined by certain guidelines as mentioned in previous posts, and partly by simple common usage.

 

[Sweet FA]

Ahh, the good old inductive approach. Those lucky toddlers will be solving the mysteries of the universe before they know it.

 

[quimcunx]

I dunno if there's a hard and fast rule that would cover everything... I know that in languages like spanish, you always use the definite article, whereas in English I'm kind of leaning towards the "one of those rules with lots of exceptions" thing.

"Going to school" - you might know yourself it's a specific school, but the person listening doesn't any more than they know which bank you're going to... it's not rational, imho.

But maybe cos it doesn't matter. If I'm on the phone to someone in Glasgow or Manchester and they tell me they went to hospital or school or church, it makes no difference to me which one. I know roughly what it will be like and knowing the name won't enlighten me any. Where that leaves bank, though I don't know.

 

[quimcunx]

I am actually of the opinion that you should get them to write down lots of examples, as many as they can think of, and any here they haven't and give them it to work on. Then report back. We'd all like to know.

 

[chooch]

That doesn't quite work either, since there are lots of colonies, geographical designations and other small territories that don't take the definite article.

Yep, but there are no nation states that I can think of that do, except, as mentioned, unions and other states with complicated names, the Republic of Ireland (partly to make a distinction from the Ireland, the island, and from Northern Ireland, though also for historical reasons- it's 'the Republic' because it's not 'the Free State') and archipelagoes (sometimes).

simple common usage.

is my standard get-out clause for anything my advanced class ask me. And rightly so.

 

[scifisam]

Yep, but there are no nation states that I can think of that do, except, as mentioned, unions and other states with complicated names, the Republic of Ireland (partly to make a distinction from the Ireland, the island, and from Northern Ireland, though also for historical reasons- it's 'the Republic' because it's not 'the Free State') and archipelagoes (sometimes).

Well, there is also, as someone else mentioned, the Gambia, though that might be, as I said, because it's named after the river. Plus the Vatican, although that barely counts as a nation state. There might be a couple of others, but I can't think of any myself.

Plus countries whose name is a plural (the Phillipines, the Netherlands and so on), and any Republic when it's referred to by its full title.

There might be some reason why it's called the Lebanon, but, since I can't figure out what it is, common usage it must be.

I used to remind my students that English has roots in several other languages, which is why the rules aren't always as consistent as they seem to be in many languages.

 

[chooch]

it's called the Lebanon, but, since I can't figure out what it is, common usage it must be.

I'd always call it Lebanon meself.

I used to remind my students that English has roots in several other languages, which is why the rules aren't always as consistent as they seem to be in many languages.

Fair point.