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England cricket 2017

Discussion in 'general sports' started by DrRingDing, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. SpookyFrank

    SpookyFrank Somewhere under the raincloud

    Root up to three, Hales in at four, Keaton Jennings dropped and replaced by anyone who has a proper first name and not just a surname in front of another surname. Ballance sold off for organ meat.
     
  2. planetgeli

    planetgeli There's no future in England's dreaming

    There's the stat I was looking for (thank you Cricinfo)

    "Since 2015, on 8 separate occasions, England have lost in the very next match after pulling off a victory."

    Stop believing the hype. And fuck this 'stick with a winning team' nonsense when you know you have deficient players who are being carried in there.
     
    Idaho likes this.
  3. Casual Observer

    Casual Observer Well-Known Member

    Swap Jennings and Dawson for Stoneman and Borthwick with Borthwick batting down the order. Need to Surrey up the side a bit.
     
  4. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Borthwick's had a poor season with the bat and barely bowls any more. No chance of him being picked.

    Case of being careful what you wish for for me, as I've been advocating picking two spinners and four seamers for a while now. But Moeen really batted like a number 8 this match, not a potential number 5. That said, the biggest problem is that England only have two quality top-order test batsmen. SA aren't over-blessed with them either - I'd make three in their team. Both sides' weakness is their brittle batting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  5. Casual Observer

    Casual Observer Well-Known Member

    Borthwick was a slightly tongue in cheek shout. He was good for the first couple of cc games this year but has since faded. His bowling, from what I've seen of it, is indeed a liability even for cc.

    Stoneman is the more serious contender but, with Cook, that would be two left-hand openers.

    What became of Hameed? Made a promising test start, broke his finger, returned to cc but doesn't get a mention these days.
     
    SpookyFrank likes this.
  6. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    SA will be massively boosted by this as well. England are missing Woakes to injury but are otherwise full strength. SA were missing Steyn to injury, Rabada to stupid suspension, ABDV to fuck-knows what, Abbott to Kolpak. Seriously depleted. That would be like England not having Woakes, Anderson, Broad or Root. And they still won.
     
  7. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat lumpen proletaricat

  8. SpookyFrank

    SpookyFrank Somewhere under the raincloud

    De Villiers has retired from test cricket hasn't he? Still ODI captain though IIRC.
     
  9. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Probably yes, but not officially. He earns more from six weeks at the IPL than he would make playing for SA for six years. Players with other options are opting out of punishing schedules. He's a symptom of a spreading disease: the pinnacle of the game is not the pinnacle of a player's earning capacity. I don't have a problem with t20 as a format. I enjoy watching it. But its finances are ruining test cricket. Have already all but ruined West Indies as a team, and now taking chunks out of other less rich countries.

    Not sure what the solution is really. We have a situation at the moment where the teams playing each other may be evenly matched on the field, but off it they are anything but. England and Pakistan drew last year. Pakistan are every bit as good as England at test cricket, but their players get less than 10 per cent the wages of the England players they go out and beat. Somehow that needs to change.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
    SpookyFrank likes this.
  10. Cerberus

    Cerberus Uptown top wankin

    Abject from England.

    Wholesale changes required but with the selectors either relunctant to or the cupboard being bare, some of these mediocre players will live to fight (or surrender) another day.

    Perennial problem opening the batting. Who next? Is there anyone left?

    No 3. Balance ain't it...

    Why are we experimenting at home with 2 spinners when we have SA, WI and then a winter in Aus? Could understand it with SC opponents .

    Dawson will never be good enough

    Wood looks shot to pieces.

    Morris and Morkel produced outstanding spells of rip snorting, aggressive fast bowling today - England don't have any bowlers (ready now or up and coming) to match this.

    Even with Englands comparative vast resources they cannot concentrate on one form without seeming to damage another - witness the lack of TM guts and application throughout this game.

    7 defeats in the last 10 games. Is it time to have specialist coaches for each format now?
     
  11. tangerinedream

    tangerinedream Density of Sound

    That was dreadful. I'm honestly quite enjoying England being shit and getting beaten by teams who aren't them, India or Australia.

    Interesting interchange between Bayliss and Agnew where Bayliss insisted they had got out by being defensive. I could see where he was coming from but it really seemed to miss the point.

    There are players who aren't good enough at their defensive games. I thought Vaughan nailed it when he was saying the problem is that the players simply don't *want* to play in a different way, that they see attacking cricket as the way they want to play and that's that. It's not good enough.

    The question above about Hameed - essentially he's been in terrible form at the beginning of the season. I'm not sure he's got a 50 yet. Biggest score I saw him get was a 40odd no in a 2nd innings low score chase for Lancs. I'm not sure it would be fair to chuck him in in that form and of course it's all hit and giggle cricket atm so he's not going to find form any time soon.

    Stoneman is a good shout imo for Jennings but I guess he'll get the series. I don't know who else should play at 3. The point which seems to be lost is the opening 3/4 should blunt the attack and then the lower orders have enough power against a more weary attack with a softer ball to score. As it is, the entire team twice struggled to last 50 overs. Why bother to pack the side with lower order power if they're not given a platform to tee off from. Surely the longer/slower the top order score the better? Then the bowlers think, oh bloody hell, they've still got Stokes and Ali to come in....

    When did we last lose or fail to win a game because we ran out of time?

    Bowling wise, either play Rashid as the spinner if you have to have two or don't piss about with rank average pseudo all rounders and stupid justifications. Or play an actual spinner like Leach, Kerrigan or Raynor. If Woakes was fit you could probably do that without weakening the batting of the tail too much. Woakes takes Dawson's spot then one of the spinners takes Wood's. I don't really understand the sudden love of spin when it involves picking players who aren't the best spinners at their county. I really don't get all this 'Moen isn't no1 so we've picked a bloke who doesn't spin it to be no1 to help him out’ stuff. He's not a world class spinner but he's decent enough.

    Woakes has been missed a lot. Wood seem to produce little which is a shame as I like him and thought he's got a bit of Simon Jones about him.

    Two excellent interesting pitches so far. Credit where it's due for that.
     
    Idaho, littlebabyjesus and planetgeli like this.
  12. Idaho

    Idaho blah blah blah

    We always do this complicated soul searching and tinkering when 1-4 get out cheaply. Start fiddling with the order, changing the bowlers, etc.
     
  13. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Guess the harsh truth is that England only rarely, and temporarily, have a complete good team. At the moment we have about two thirds of a team.
     
    Streathamite likes this.
  14. Idaho

    Idaho blah blah blah

    Other than a brief couple of years - the 2010/11 Australia tour and subsequent India tour - our batting has always been fragile. Get one of our wickets and you'll get 4.

    Those two tours Cook and Trott dug in as openers.
     
  15. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    This bit is particularly bad thinking. My reading of it is that Moeen is a bit pissed off with being shunted around and batting at 8, and now that he has a year of good batting behind him he's asserting himself a bit. But if you have to pick a Dawson to get the best out of Moeen, that rather takes the gloss off Moeen's all-round value. Makes no sense at all to me.

    And Moeen rather batted like a number 8 at TB...
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  16. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    At one point, around that Aus tour, the whole top 7 averaged over 40, then you had Swann, Anderson, Broad plus Finn/Tremlett/Bresnan/Onions. That was a complete team for a while. The 2005 Ashes team also counts, just about - the King of Spain did just about enough to justify it.

    On that India tour, Compton's value in digging in alongside Cook was a bit undervalued at the time, I think. England were never 50-3 on that tour.
     
  17. Idaho

    Idaho blah blah blah

    They all have to be the maverick at all times. Every team needs a couple of trott/Comptons. They tire out the bowlers. The first few hours of an innings *should* be boring.
     
    tangerinedream and kabbes like this.
  18. tangerinedream

    tangerinedream Density of Sound

    Compton was undervalued. If you score 20 but face 100 balls, it's worth more as an opener than scoring 20 in 35 balls. The game is supposed to test the bowlers physically but this side honestly doesn't seem to see any value in that.

    I think the 'soul searching' is valid as it's been apparant for a good year that we have a flaky batting line up.

    It's by design, not accident. There is a lot of merit in having destructive players and I'd keep most of the side as it is but you need *some* players who at least it is simply difficult to remove. They might not score quickly or be even especially good but I'm fed up with players who don't seem to want to address how they get out.

    Dobell's article this morning was good, same old article he's been writing for a while but essentially spot on. White ball cricket too dominant domestically, cocks up spin, Bayliss knows nowt about county cricket, not even been to see stoneman play ever for example. Much improved in white ball, going backwards in red ball cos new players blooded not selected carefully enough and old players getting older.

    He also calls out the selection of Dawson directly as being 'for being a decent bloke' - with Leach it seems he's not been picked for being 'the wrong sort of bloke' to me. I'm fed up of this 'team England' mentality. There has to be a middle ground between the 90s chop and change and the 'picking the right kind of blokes and sticking with them and just saying go and do what you do' approach.
     
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  19. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Meanwhile, terrific test in Colombo as Sri Lanka chase down 391 in a final-day thriller.

    On a side issue, isn't it about time England started playing Zim again?
     
  20. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Even the great Brian Lara worked on the adage that you give the first hour to the bowler.
     
  21. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Dobell gets most things right, imo. Best cricket writer around atm.
     
  22. tangerinedream

    tangerinedream Density of Sound

    I agree.
     
  23. planetgeli

    planetgeli There's no future in England's dreaming

    And score 737 runs over 2 innings without a single century maker. Zim also only appeared to have 2 bowlers in the 2nd innings (bowling 92 of 115 overs). All round interesting game.

    I've been to RPS in Colombo, good stadium, decent pitches. Saw Ali score a century in an ODI. (And England still lost btw)
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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  24. tangerinedream

    tangerinedream Density of Sound

    That is indeed a bizarre scorecard. Especially seen as two of the three other bowlers didn't go for many in the few overs they got.
     
  25. SpookyFrank

    SpookyFrank Somewhere under the raincloud

    Assuming we need two spinners, wouldn't it be nice if the man with the best batting form in the county championship was also a useful spin bowler with plenty of international experience? His name might be Samit Patel, or something along those lines.
     
    tangerinedream likes this.
  26. planetgeli

    planetgeli There's no future in England's dreaming

  27. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    That's what it always looks like to me.
     
  28. planetgeli

    planetgeli There's no future in England's dreaming

    Not on my PC.
     
  29. tangerinedream

    tangerinedream Density of Sound

    One assumes that if Malan plays instead of Dawson plays a composite of Root, Westley and Malan will be England's no1 spinner with the batsman that bowls a bit at 8 and the number one spinner at 3,4 and 5.
     
  30. Idaho

    Idaho blah blah blah

    England selectors are like the tory party of sport. They come up with depressingly dismal and wrong headed solutions to problems of their own devising.
     

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