England come home

Discussion in 'football' started by palomino, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    I'm not disputing the existence of a book of apologia, in fact I'm surprised there aren't more examples. I'm just pointing out that it is bollocks.
     
  2. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    This better record shit is bollocks. World cups are the only stat that matters. England is and always has been one of the foremost nations in world football, yet you have one major comp win, won on home turf with help from some very dodgy officiating half a century ago.

    Why is it so difficult for you to admit that England are massive underachievers as a footballing nation?
     
  3. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    I should imagine the facts that the population of Wales is 2.9 million, football isn't the primary sport, and our domestic set-up in on a par with Moldova probably has something to do with it. But yes, you are right that we are almost wholly reliant upon the English club system for our youth development - and this is where English football falls down. So if England, population nearly sixty million, can't achieve anything using the English club system then Wales, population less than three million, hasn't got a chance in hell of ever achieving fuck all.

    I doubt many Wales fans would ever say otherwise tbh.
     
  4. strung out

    strung out (",)

    tbh, your view that we should do better because we have a better pedigree is bollocks and offensive. just because we wrote the first standardised rules in the 19th century doesn't mean we should be necessarily be better than other countries, who often played forms of the game well before we claimed that we taught the game to everyone. and i don't see why the fact we wrote some rules 150 years ago means we should automatically be one of the best teams all these years later. the fact we are still in the top 8 teams in the world is a credit to us. stop trolling.
     
  5. StanSmith

    StanSmith Three Lions on my shirt

    Well it gives all the A.B.E (Arseholes Barracking England) somewhere to troll for a while.
     
  6. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    I'm not on about who invented the rules of associated football you knob. I'm on about England being a rich and economically advanced powerhouse with a vast population, in which football is the primary sport and which has a league structure that is certainly one of, if not the, best in the world.

    On paper, England should consistently be one of the strongest national teams in world football, but you are not. Yet you deny this bald fact.

    I'm not trolling you tit. I just don't get why England fans largely deny the obvious and come out with loads of excuses. Why not just be honest, accept that as a national team you are massive underachievers, and perhaps look into why you consistently under-perform?

    Youth development, that is why imo. And not at elite level, where the top clubs have caught up with their European and South American counterparts, but across the board - the way grassroots youth football is taught across the UK is a fucking shambles, and until this is addressed then none of the 'home nations' have a got a snowball in hells chance of ever achieving any degree of permanent success.
     
  7. Augie March

    Augie March Well-Known Member

  8. strung out

    strung out (",)

    you have convinced me. england should be the best team in the world.
     
  9. Lord Camomile

    Lord Camomile Lemonade socialist

    Now that, I would somewhat agree with.
     
  10. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    They should be one of the best teams, yes. But while English football collectively puts its fingers in its ears and shouts hysterically that 'this is our year' instead of comprehensively addressing the whole culture of competitive football then this will never happen. And this fucks me off because, as you rightly point out, Wales is reliant upon English football development and most likely always will be. So we will be wank as long as you are still wank.
     
  11. strung out

    strung out (",)

    i agree that england has a lot of work to do with regards to youth development, grassroots etc, but the facts are, that historically we are one of the top eight teams in the world, and currently (at least on recent world cups and fifa rankings) we are one of the top 8 teams in the world. yes, we could do better, but it's not a massive gulf from being in the top eight, to actually winning it one year.
     
  12. Maltin

    Maltin Well-Known Member

    Spain

    England have qualified for the same number of competitions but with one less opportunity. England have played 6 more games and have an average 5% more points per per game:

    Looking at those competitions since England rejoined FIFA:

    1950 - England first round; Spain 4th
    1954 - England quarter finals; Spain did not qualify
    1958 - England first round; Spain did not qualify
    1962 - England quarter finals; Spain first round
    1966 - England Winners; Spain first round
    1970 - England quarter finals; Spain did not qualify
    1974 - England and Spain did not qualify
    1978 - England did not qualify; Spain first round
    1982 - England and Spain second round
    1986 - England and Spain quarter finals
    1990 - England 4th; Spaind second round
    1994 - England did not qualify; Spain quarter finals
    1998 - England second round; Spain first round
    2002 - England and Spain quarter finals
    2006 - England quarter finals; Spain second round

    Spain 3 quarter finals v England's 8 suggest England's record at World Cups has been significantly better than Spain's.

    Uruguay

    Were Olympic winners (World champions) in 1924 and 1928 when England did not take part and then won the first World Cup, on home territory. Last won 60 years ago and finished 4th in 1954 and 1970, but haven't really done anything since. England have earned 67% more points than Uruguay. Have only qualified twice since 1990.
     
  13. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    You are behind Uruguay in the pecking order matey.
     
  14. strung out

    strung out (",)

    given that we have performed better than uruguay since 1950 and didn't enter any of the first three world cups, that's a really really shit example
     
  15. Maltin

    Maltin Well-Known Member

    :facepalm: It's not. I agree that England have underachieved since rejoining FIFA in 1946 and most English people agree.:rolleyes:
     
  16. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    Why are you banging on about win percentages? They don't fucking matter. Winning it matters.

    Quite why you feel the need to point out that Uruguay last won it eons ago is beyond me - so did England. Uruguay can at least make the case that they've won it on somebody elses turf.

    And as for England's 'exile' - why was that? Was it because the FA had a parochial, inward looking sense of superiority which considered competing in world cups beneath them? Yes it was. Did the FA consider themselves the best national team in world football by dint of simply being English? Yes they did. And here you are, nearly a century later, with this attitude still prevalent in English football!

    Shit. Perhaps if English football ever masters the art of humility and learns to look outside this little island then things might change - but that doesn't seem very likely now does it...
     
  17. Maltin

    Maltin Well-Known Member

    After the weekend's result, they have gone below Haiti having failed to score a single World Cup goal and having -12 goal difference. :D
     
  18. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    You're not getting this at all are you?

    The winner isn't decided by committee based upon win percentages and historical record, it is decided by beating the opposition in every match - something Uruguay has done once more than England. That they haven't achieved much since is hardly surprising for a poor nation of three million competing in the most difficult qualification grouping in world football, is it?
     
  19. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    Do they? Seems these English people you speak of are in short supply on this thread. And everywhere else, for that matter.

    All I ever hear is either denial or apologia. I remember David Platt commenting some years back that the English national team will never catch up until England faces up to the problems inherent in English football, and specifically development, and the response from the media and English fans was to effectively accuse him of disloyalty.
     
  20. strung out

    strung out (",)

    i'm very sorry that england didn't win the world cup in 1930. massive underachievement by us
     
  21. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    Fucking hell. You are, in a nutshell, everything that is wrong with English football culture.
     
  22. Maltin

    Maltin Well-Known Member

    How many times have Spain won it then?

    Whilst Uruguay have more wins, their overall record is worse.

    England's exile - whilst I am too young to know the detail, I don't think it was anything to do with parochialism or superiority. Initially it was due to issues over amateurism and all of the home nations (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) took the same view and withdrew, so your argument fails there.

    Will the English press ever not try to claim that we should always win the World Cup and European championships? Probably not!
     
  23. strung out

    strung out (",)

    i don't really know what your point is. we're currently in the top 8 in the world, and are historically also in the top 8 in the world. yes, we probably have slightly underachieved compared to our potential, but then again, 7th or 8th isn't massive underachievement, it's just not doing quite as well as we should have done. i agree that our youth development and grassroots system is lacking, and hopefully, if they ever sort it out, we might win the thing again. that doesn't negate the fact, that we're about where we should be in world football, probably slightly below par.
     
  24. strung out

    strung out (",)

    explain
     
  25. mattie

    mattie missing in inaction

    Actually, please don't.
     
  26. Maltin

    Maltin Well-Known Member

    Anyway, it's a sport. Winning isn't important, it's the taking part that counts. :p
     
  27. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    England - one world cup win, no other major comps.

    Spain - two european championships, no other major comps.

    Are you really arguing that England have a significantly better record as a national team than Spain?

    So fucking what! This 'overall record' you speak of is bull shit. They've won it twice, including beating a highly rates Brasil side in the final at the Maracana. That is all that matters - who wins the world cup. Win percentages and overall record is just bullshit for apologists.

    It was precisely because of parochialism and superiority. Read some Brian Glanville or something.

    It isn't just the media. It is the fans, the former players, the talking heads - it isn't a problem specific to the media. It is a disease throughout English footballing culture.
     
  28. Lord Camomile

    Lord Camomile Lemonade socialist

    Depends on your criteria, don't it. Consitency is surely a better sign of 'superiority' than a couple of anomalies?

    By your rationale, Greece and Denmark's footballing pedigree are on par with the Netherlands and (arguably) Italy, which is surely not what you'd argue? Would you? :confused:
     
  29. Proper Tidy

    Proper Tidy I killed a man

    Fifa ranking don't matter. The US were 4th in Fifa rankings for the best part of a decade!

    Competitions matter, and England are nowhere near where they should be. And the grassroots football culture in England will not change until attitudes change and until English football accepts that it is insular parochialism and jingoism that has led them into the doldrums. You are always trying to change it from the top down - Erikson, Capello, the dramatic culture change amongst the elite clubs, the Premier League. It needs to be changed from beneath, from the grassroots up, but you are further away from that now than you were in the fucking eighties!
     
  30. Lord Camomile

    Lord Camomile Lemonade socialist

    Nope, just don't accept that premise, it's simplistic bollocks and fails to appreciate the nature of a knock-out tournament.
     

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