End of truce in Palestine

[moono]

TomUS;

I have no such list.

So, you're condemning rocket attacks about which you have no details ? Ten attacks is it ? Twenty-two ? Nobody killed ? Thousands dead ?

Yet you approve of many thousands of artillery shells pumped into Palestine on the basis of........defense against rocket attacks.

If you don't mind me so saying, old sport, you appear to be a typical victim of Zionist propaganda as disseminated by the American media. Not your fault though. Stay tuned for some truths.

TomUS;

Israel has a right to attempt to stop these attacks by knocking of the attackers.

And what about the Palestinian right to 'knock off the attackers' ? Or is this 'right' just the American-approved version .

 

[Cakes]

dp

 

[Cakes]

Sure would be nice to find a way to get both sides to stop the shooting. I don't have an easy answer for how this can be done though.

Wouldn't it just. I get frustrated with the attacks from both sides but get the impression that the missile attacks by militants are more difficult to detect and prevent than the attacks by the army of Israel, which are state controlled and therefore surely more preventable. For instance, after the picnic massacre, the chief of staff ordered an immediate stop to all artillery shelling of Gaza. I don't get the impression that the attacks from Palestine are under the same type of control. What do people think about the level of control Hamas or the PA have over these attacks?

Yesterday's air strike by Israel boosted the exchange in Gaza by launching a second missile at ambulances and rescuers who had arrived after the original target had been hit:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5074798.stm
The target is said to have been a vehicle on it's way to launch attacks on Israel. By taking this out along with medics, civilians and children Israel may have prevented this particular attack, but by making an attack of their own. A street full of people torn apart by Israeli missiles is no better than a street full of people torn apart by Palestinian missiles, it's not a solution, it's just another set of people dead and another round of attacks against Israel inspired.

* as a matter of interest, do these missiles tend to be the improvised devices that are described in the insurgent attacks in Iraq?

 

[TAE]

The first missle strike hitting a target which is about to launch an attack is understandable, but then knowingly launching another strike against the civilians that had gathered is surely an example of 'targetting civilians'.

 

[moono]

The first missle strike hitting a target which is about to launch an attack is understandable

Surely, such information is extremely unlikely to be known to the Zionists. It is a claim which masks a policy of assassination of political leaders, figureheads, or in fact any Palestinians which the IOF fear for one reason or another.
'On their way to attack Israel', 'planning to attack Israel' etc. might just as well be replaced with 'on their way to plan to attack Israel politically'.

I just thought I'd point that out as I agree with the second part of your post and it is SO easy to unconsciously make concessions when trying to make a point.

Assassination, extra-judicial killing, even trial in absentia are all illegal. Of course, these illegal actions form the backbone of this fascist regime as they do all fascist regimes.

 

[TAE]

Surely, such information is extremely unlikely to be known to the Zionists.

True, but the IDF might have known.

Perhaps I should have said:
"IF the IDF knew that an attack was about to take place, and IF the only way to stop that attack was to bomb the car, THEN ..."

 

[moono]

Sorry, but you can't slip a fag paper between 'assassination' and 'pre-emptive attack', not when it's the assassins doing the pre-empting.

 

[rachamim18]

Cakes: It comes down to two very simple facts: Israel is tasked with saving Israeli lives, not "Palestinian lives. the latter is the responsibility of the PA. Secondly, that family is less than the number that could be killed with a missile with a range of 19 km. Ergo, Israel is doing exactly what it is uspposed to do and the policy does work because while inncoent Arabs die, inncoent Israelis are being saved. IF the PA did its share, noone would die. Pretty simple.

TAE: What am I talking about? You claimed that Israeli soldiers have claimed that it is Israeli policy. Only Taysir has and he recanted that. He also claimed Mr. Hundall was armed, etc. Taysir obviously has problems. Ironically, he is Arab.

"Ethics." I do not know how up you are on world events, or if you have had been in any military, but a sad fact of life is that inncoent people die in armed conflicts. this happens in EVERY SINGLE one.

The UK is not an "ally." It is an ally of the US. With the exception of hang it out to dry in Suez, it has never done a thing for Israel [and in fact has often harmed it].

Israel does not assasinate, it carries out judicial orders. Although I suppose that it depends on your views concerning the death penalty.

Yes, Europeans have been happy killing other Europeans but one cannot say the same for Englishmen killing Englishmen, right?

There is no "Palestinian Army." They have Security focres and Preventive Security Forces but their task is domestic law enforcement.

NewHarper: International Law does NOT require Israel to withdraw anywhere. It offered to withdraw to the 67 Borders [less 3%] but the Arabs rejected this. they are now in no position to dictate anything. as long as they continue allowing militants to iniate armed attacks on Israeli non-combatants, they are not going to be able to demand anything.


Moono: The lists of Qassam casualties are all over the net. in fact, simply google it. I can tell you of a 3 year old girl. I can tell you of a 47 year old man. I can tell you of a 17 year old girl who threw her body over the body of her retarded 4 year old brother before she was killed. yiou want stories? not statistics but actual people. In fact, they still die, even though Israel has installed early warning radar in S'derot and Ashkelon. this radar saves lives but only offers 20 seconds before impact.

Qassams [there are many types] are usually loaded with slivers of razor blades and sheetrock nails to do more damage. there are no guidance systems so that they land anywhere they want. In fact, many land in Gaza and even kill "Palestinians." this is why there are questions around the beach blast.

As for number of attacks, at least 3 have landed in Israel Proper EVERY SINGLE day since Israel left Gaza. Usually many more. Israel, unlike "Palestinians," does not just point its rockets south. It has laser and radio guided shells. It used artillery sensitive radar to pinpoint Qassam sites. Sadly, militants choose populated areas as launch sites. Tell us though, what steps have the militants taken to ensure Israeli civilains have not been injured?

Extra-Judicial Execution is NOT illegal. Disagree? Provide proof, not opinion please.

Cakes: Yes, Qassams are impprovised devices. there are several types like al Banna, al Samoud, Kaffah, Arafat, quds, Akhsa, and so on. they do have some common characteristics though; Usually have solid propellant, improvised fuses, 4 welded fins. They are not harmelss by any means with up to 25 km range [think Grads]. The devices in Iraq are roadside bombs though. They do not need homamade rockets as they have alrge caches of Iraqi arms.

TAE:You are wrong on the second missile striking an ambulance. that can easily happen in an area where not only civilian vehichles used for terrorism, but ambulances as well. Focr 17 even owns an ambulance company used for this purpose! However, in this case it was a gunboat firing and its radar can not differentiate between ambulance and other vehichles. It could also have been an errant hit. There are so many variables involved.

Tom: Israel actually offered to give up all of East Jerusalem in 93, Arabs of course rejected it.

 

[Cakes]

Israel is doing exactly what it is uspposed to do and the policy does work because while inncoent Arabs die, inncoent Israelis are being saved. IF the PA did its share, noone would die. Pretty simple.

See, I feel that a policy that dissmissess the loss of innocent life in the way you describe above, is not working.

You must admit that the attack on an ambulance days after a picnicing family is hit will make the situation so much worse for the live of Israelis living near Gaza? I don't mean to be biassed, the militant attacks share the blame. But after you have described the accuracy the Israeli rockets are capable of, don't you think Israel should find a better way than this to combat missile attacks?

 

[G. Fieendish]

Re:last comment
IAI are with the assistance of Boeing are testing out a anti-missile system, (currently in prototype stage), designed to intercept Quassam type rockets...
Mind you, what would happen if said system did enter IAF service....?
(Would the IAF discontinue their policy of "Reprisal Attacks", or would they continue, even if said incoming rocket was intercepted in flight...?).

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Moono: The lists of Qassam casualties are all over the net.

So post one. I want to compare it with a list of casualties caused by Israeli artillery fire.

 

[astronaut]

So post one. I want to compare it with a list of casualties caused by Israeli artillery fire.

Wikipedia says that 8 Israelis have been killed by Qassam rockets (since June 2004).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket#List_of_notable_Qassam_attacks

The truth is, Rach overstates their affects, Moono understates them - the truth is in the middle.

Hundreds of Qassam rockets have been fired, and they do drastically affect life in the area, even when they only land in the desert.

 

[Graymalkin]

Which is interesting since my source here indicates that only 5 people have been killed by the roughly 4500 rockets fired since 2001. So, about one death per 900 rockets or one death per year.

 

[astronaut]

Which is interesting since my source here indicates that only 5 people have been killed by the roughly 4500 rockets fired since 2001. So, about one death per 900 rockets or one death per year.

Well, I don't know which is true. But, if 4500 rockets were fired at Britain, there would be military action against it.

The point is, the militants firing the rockets are being fatalistic. Israel has withdrawn from Gaza, and them firing rockets is just inviting Israel to retaliate.

It's a classic case of extremists dictating events, to the detriment of 99% of the population who want to live in peace.

 

[Graymalkin]

and I Suppose tyhe point I was trying to make is that, terrifying as these devices are, firing guided missles into a crowded areas in response to these attacks has probably caused far more deaths and terror. As callous a weapon as those Qassams are, firing missles into Gaza won't stop them, nor is it probably worth the effort given how easy they are to produce and use. Sledgehammer/walnut etc.

 

[warren]

Actually bubeleh, I couldn't ban you even if I wanted to. I'm not a moderator.

Ok. Mixing you up with FM. Also thought by the number of posts you were a mod.

 

[rachamim18]

Cakes: The policy does NOT dismiss innocent life. In fact it tries to minimise it. A ground operation would put many more inncoent "Palestinian" in grave danger.

Israel did not attack an ambulance though. This is what happened: The IAF targeted the van carring a Grad launch team and Grad missiles. the IAF fired one brace at the van and just missed it. The occupants of the van hopped out. Of the 4 men, two ran to a nearby house. The other two began trying to offload the Grads. Within seconds onlookers arrived and a few joined in the offloading.

Less than a minute later an ambulance arrived. The IAF Observer wanred of a civilain presence but did so 7 seconds before the second brace was launched. To redirect the brace could have placed many more people in peril , even if it could be redirected within the 7 second allotment [my experience says no although I am not IAF, nor atillery]. The brace was fired and landed , hitting others.

The Arabs claim it was 3 to 4 minutes between braces. The IAF however films all its strikes and is stating that it was less than a minute, with a 7 second warning. knowing the scrutiny being paid, I am sure they can back their claimi do not see that there is a better way to deal with terrorist missle strikes, than to hammer them and their sites. It has proven effective. Misstrikes happen. This is a sad fact.

GFieendish: Israel already has 3 systems in place. It has not stopped Qassams from hitting, just lowered their death toll. The new system is designed to offer more of a warning, not more protection per se. Currently Israelis have 20 seconds before a missile hits them.

moono: I will try yo post one when I have time. If you are truly curious, visit the Israeli Foreign Ministry site, or a hundred others.

Astronaut: Wikipedia is reader submitted articles. I have three on it. so if you doubt me, you certainly should doubt your source. Number two, the article is not updated everytime someone is hit or killed. In fact your article only counts until june 2004 [2 years ago]. since Israel left Gaza, seveal Qassams have been launced EVERY DAY. Ergo, my 9 is correct [sadly].

Gray: With all due respect to that Canadian paper [sic], it is wrong. I love its objectivity [reoccupation, etc.]. sigh...

you say it is a "hammer on a walnut." What do YOu propose Israel do then?

To all: I will try to get out my list of individuals killed by them and post it.

 

[Graymalkin]

If you have a source on Qassam casualties lets see it then. I'm not denying that my source could have underestimated the casualties but The Toronto Star is a fairly balanced and respected paper. Even if your figure of 9 casualties since 2004 is correct how many palestinian civilians have been killed in retailatory strikes? Nine were killed in the one response discussed on this thread is that a prudent counter-insurgency strategy? What to do about it? The early warning systems seem like the best solution, not perfect mind you but frankly the Qassams are not that serious a threat if they kill only 9 people in nearly two years, that sounds callous but its true. Shooting missles into civilian areas will only forment more hatred and you know this.

 

[astronaut]

but The Toronto Star is a fairly balanced and respected paper.

True, but it is hardly an authority on the Middle East conflict.

I used this source and found 8 killed by Qassams.

I don't know how reliable that list is, and to be honest, there isn't much of a difference between 5 and 8 anyway.

But, as I said before, some people blatantly understate the threat, and others blatantly overstate the threat.

 

[TAE]

The IAF Observer wanred of a civilain presence but did so 7 seconds before the second brace was launched.

Two things:
(a) 7 seconds is a very long time.
(b) The rocket attack had been prevented.

 

[moono]

Astronaut;

I don't know how reliable that list is, and to be honest, there isn't much of a difference between 5 and 8 anyway.

Unless you happen to be related to one of the 'insignificant' three, numbnuts.

 

[astronaut]

Unless you happen to be related to one of the 'insignificant' three, numbnuts.

Do you have an extremely good point here that is perhaps extremely well hidden?

I mean, on other threads you are belittling Israeli deaths completely, but here three are suddenly extremely important.

That is extremely inconsistent. Can you explain?

 

[moono]

Astronaut;

on other threads you are belittling Israeli deaths completely

You're deluded.

 

[astronaut]

You're deluded.

Really?

On the other thread you said:

Quassams have killed very few people

While on this thread you said:

Unless you happen to be related to one of the 'insignificant' three

This is contradictory, to say the least.

So, are you just trolling, or do you have a point to make?

 

[moono]

You're clutching at straws. 'Quassams have killed very few people' in NO way implies that those deaths were insignificant, particularly when followed by the qualifier which you've omitted. ( ' whilst the deaths of even those few are to be regretted' )

On the other hand, your statement does;

Astronaut;

to be honest, there isn't much of a difference between 5 (dead)and 8 (dead) anyway.

You can't win the point, numbnuts, give it up now and don't bore everybody.
Better yet, make some face-saving tribute towards those Israeli civilians whose lives you've diminished.

 

[Fez909]

What do YOu propose Israel do then?

Stop killing Palestinian civilians and kids (note there is no need for " " around Palestinians. I'm sure you'd get all uppity if someone started calling your country "Israel" or calling you "Jews" as if you don't really exist) and get out of Palestine.

Only then will Israel be able to claim the moral high ground it is now, and any tacit approval of Palestinian violence will slowly shrink away. As it is, we're bombared with news of Palestinian terrorism and the suffering they cause the Israelis as if we are meant to sympathise with the invader.

Stop breaking the law. Get back in into Israel. You'd have a much stronger case, that way. Put the impetus onto the Palestinian government and militias through good deeds, rather than creating ways to show their shortcomings, which only causes more violence.

 

[rachamim18]

Gray: First, the Toronto paper obviously is getting its statistics from an Arab source [5 is their mantra in this matter]. If you put stock in a paper that does not even check fundamental facts like that than I am afraid you'll never know very much about the dynamic. I will provide a list with all relevant data later. I actually had it yesterday but left it elsewhere.

You are mistaken, Israeli artillery barrages are not "retaliatory." When the IDF fires into Gaza it is firing at one of five objectives: I] Militants themselves, II] Launch sites, III] Missile workshops, IV] Supply houses that provide raw materials for the Qassams, or V] Caches.

The fact that IDF artillery has killed more than Qassams is irrelevant. It is not a contest. You have an illegal armed group attacking civilian citizens of a sovereign state. Israel , the sovereign state, does not just point its guns south or east and let loose. It attempts to have the PA effect justice. Of course the PA totally ignores Israeli pleading. Then, what would you have Israel do?

You should also take note that Israel has 3, soon to be 4, early warning systems to guard against casualties.

The total number of victims from Qassams is not 9. It is well over 20. The 9 are just within Israel Proper. however, even one victim is VERY serious and WAY too much

Astronaut: "There isn't much difference between 5 and 8 anyway." Really? I would wager that the families of those 3 deaths would disagree a bit. ONE IS TOO MANY.amn! i just see that Moono had the same thought! That IS indeed scary.]


TAE: 7 seconds is not a very long time when a painter is radioing coortdinates. Time yourself as you say :It's all clear, give it a go." Of course the exchange was in Hebrew, etc. but it is an example to show that those 7 seconds could not have prevented anything.

Still, the IDF has actually stated that it is almost through with its final investigation and all evidence is pointing towards a HAMAS mine. I am aware of the American from an NGO who claims to have recovered pieces of Israeli ordanance from the beach but that is meaningless since the beach is a frequent recipient of IAF/IDF attention due to its propensity to be used as a launch site. in addition the man is said to have no military expereince so he should have never even been taken seriously.

As the Israeli Navy performed an operation on that beach less than 2 weeks prior to the event, it is absolutely certain that there no mines at all there. Since the IDF HAS recovered mine fragments it is looking like a strong case against HAMAS for killing those people.

Fez: I have explained my use of apostrophes with regard to the word "Palestinian" many times. In short, "Palestine" has never existed nor have there ever been an Arab people known as "Palestinian" until 1948. in fact, prior to 48 the word described ANY resident of the Mandate, including Jews. since it is now used exclusively by Arabs, it deserves apostrophes so that people are not confused by the term [in this thread Mandate era facts are often discussed].

If soemone used apostrophes around Israeli, they would not make sense. Still, it would be their perogativve and I would not deride it. I do believe that like you, I would be curious. however, I would not seek to dictate anything to the person.

You state "stop killing 'Palestinian' kids, etc." but do not offer any substance. Sure, to stop would be great...but how to stop? Just allow the Arabs carte blanche to bomb and rocket Israel and its civilian population?

"Get out of 'Palestine'." Define "Palestine" please.

I guess you are still unaware that Israel is leaving the "West Bank" in less than 2 years. It has already left Gaza

 

[RhymnRzn]

Stop killing Palestinian civilians and kids (note there is no need for " " around Palestinians. I'm sure you'd get all uppity if someone started calling your country "Israel" or calling you "Jews" as if you don't really exist) and get out of Palestine.

Only then will Israel be able to claim the moral high ground it is now, and any tacit approval of Palestinian violence will slowly shrink away. As it is, we're bombared with news of Palestinian terrorism and the suffering they cause the Israelis as if we are meant to sympathise with the invader.

Stop breaking the law. Get back in into Israel. You'd have a much stronger case, that way. Put the impetus onto the Palestinian government and militias through good deeds, rather than creating ways to show their shortcomings, which only causes more violence.

worthy post here: and even more brotherly things than this........

 

[moono]

Aye to that.


Rachamim;

guess you are still unaware that Israel is leaving the "West Bank" in less than 2 years. It has already left Gaza

Lies. From the fount.

 

[TAE]

TAE: 7 seconds is not a very long time when a painter is radioing coortdinates. Time yourself as you say :It's all clear, give it a go." Of course the exchange was in Hebrew, etc. but it is an example to show that those 7 seconds could not have prevented anything.

"ABORT ABORT" takes just under a second.

Still, the IDF has actually stated that it is almost through with its final investigation and all evidence is pointing towards a HAMAS mine. I am aware of the American from an NGO who claims to have recovered pieces of Israeli ordanance from the beach but that is meaningless since the beach is a frequent recipient of IAF/IDF attention due to its propensity to be used as a launch site. in addition the man is said to have no military expereince so he should have never even been taken seriously.

An IDF report clearing the IDF of wrong doing, that is hardly an independent investigation.