End of truce in Palestine

[TomUS]

And i really really hope Hamas et al make isreal`s citizens pay a very heavy price..its the only langaunge these fucks understand

The time will come to hold the Zionists to account

What simple minded hate filled talk. Israel = devils, Palestinians = angels. Just black & white. No shades of grey possible. There are rotten fanatics on both sides - plenty of blame all around. If Hamas launches more attacks on Israel, they will be smashed which is fine by me. But so will many Palestinians who actually want peace and a state. It's time to pull out of dreamland and work toward practical solutions.

 

[moono]

This atrocity, and others, could have been avoided. Back in April the United States, through its weasel ambassador, John Bolton, blocked a draft statement intended to provide the 'practical solutions' mentioned by the member from America , above. This was the result, TomUS;

14 April 2006

The U.N. Security Council has taken no action on a proposed statement that would have criticized Israeli military strikes in the Palestinian territories. The United States blocked the text, calling it "unbalanced" and "unfair".

"Fourteen members of Security Council demonstrated understanding, but unfortunately one member who is shielding and protecting Israeli aggression against the Palestinian people in Gaza and in other parts of the occupied territory, it is unfortunate that that position is hostile to the Palestinian people," he said.


After blocking the draft statement, the U.S. Ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, said that the text “was disproportionately critical of Israel, and unfairly so, and needlessly so,”



But in the end, there was deadlock. Ambassador Bolton said he was not bothered by whether the United States was characterized as the "lone holdout". "I don't want to get into characterizing it, but if I were the only holdout, I'd be proud of that fact," he said.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-04/2006-04-14-voa1.cfm?CFID=16332198&CFTOKEN=98488798

American administrations feed the Zionist dream, an Israel expanded at Palestinian expense, because the Israel Lobby has permeated Congress. A bill currently being 'debated' by the Senate verges on making it illegal to be a Palestinian.

Bolton was 'proud of that fact' in April . Is he proud of it today ?

warren;

On a more seious note have you ( cemertyone ) ever thought of registering on a neo-Nazi website, I'm sure their World view on these 'fucks' are very similar to yours.

I'm no neo-nazi, no nazi of any description yet my 'world view' isn't so far from his. How come you screech 'Nazi' in a thread focussing on an atrocity by Zionist fascists ? You want to condemn him as a 'nazi' because he vents his anger at the slaughter of innocents ?
The time will come to hold the Zionists to account. They were condemned as a racist organisation by the United Nations in the mid 1970s and it's time that they were condemned again. You think bringing them 'to account' justifies your exclamations of 'Nazi' ?
What's your slant on the shelling of a picnicking family ? 'Collateral damage' was it ? A 'good kill' ? 'Necessary lesson learned ' ? 'Unfortunate yet unavoidable ' ? Schmuck.

 

[nino_savatte]

Your right. These dirty Jews understand nothing but violence. It is the time for Hamas to kill as many as these fucks as possible. There needs to be a 2nd Shoah to wipe these sub-human vermin off the face of this Earth.

On a more seious note have you ever thought of registering on a neo-Nazi website, I'm sure their World view on these 'fucks' are very similar to yours.

I thought you'd been banned. How very disappointing.

 

[rachamim18]

TAE: How do I know that the Israeli guns did not aim for civilains? Because the Israeli military does not aim for non-combatants.

Panda: "Context." right, I am sure that you are not slow, so please cut out the games. You know what it meant. "Israeli civilians get what they deserve, it is the only thing they understand?" Offer me some other possiblities. Better yet, let us allow the responsible party explain themself.

Lumpen: HAMAS has NOT "maintained a ceasefire for 16 months." From the first month it has blatantly ignored it. I recently provided 5 off the cuff examples in a post to Moono. I can offer more if you would like. the point of course is that there has NEVER been any ceasefie. All of the Arab groups who signed it have violated it.


Flexible? How so? It has never deviated one iota.

Natural resources will of course be taken into account. What would ever make you think that the "Palestinians" would agree to a state without such gurantees?

Nino: "Fraud and propaganda?" I suppose then that you have never heard that ISM admitted that photos it released were doctored? Never heard of the magical treeline?

X77: You confused HAMAS with Israel.


Moono: The UN did NOT "condemn Israel as raicst." A NON-binding Resolution did. there is a difference between a Resolution and the body of members. Only a certain number of members are needed for such a Resolution. the UN is the sum of its members. Unless all signed off on it, you cannot apply your description.

 

[warren]

warren;

I'm no neo-nazi, no nazi of any description yet my 'world view' isn't so far from his. How come you screech 'Nazi' in a thread focussing on an atrocity by Zionist fascists ? You want to condemn him as a 'nazi' because he vents his anger at the slaughter of innocents ?
The time will come to hold the Zionists to account. They were condemned as a racist organisation by the United Nations in the mid 1970s and it's time that they were condemned again. You think bringing them 'to account' justifies your exclamations of 'Nazi' ?
What's your slant on the shelling of a picnicking family ? 'Collateral damage' was it ? A 'good kill' ? 'Necessary lesson learned ' ? 'Unfortunate yet unavoidable ' ? Schmuck.

Moono to be fair I have never heard you come out with the vitriol of hatred that cemerty targeted at the Zionist entity. His hate crossed a line. While I disagree with you on many things I have yet to see a statement by you which would qualify as racial-hatred like the bile spat by cemerty.

It is also good to to see you calling for Hamas to not seek vengence for this attack. I hope you view peaceful resistance to the occupation as the way forward.

I thought you'd been banned. How very disappointing.

You better go have a moan at VP, FM or Editor, then.

 

[rachamim18]

Warren: You must not have been paying attention lately [Jewboy, shyster]...but as Fridge said, on to other things.

 

[warren]

Warren: You must not have been paying attention lately [Jewboy, shyster]...but as Fridge said, on to other things.

I havent to be honest. Whats he been saying?

 

[ViolentPanda]

You better go have a moan at VP, FM or Editor, then.

Why's that?

 

[warren]

Why's that?

Because your the ones who can ban me.

 

[TAE]

TAE: How do I know that the Israeli guns did not aim for civilains? Because the Israeli military does not aim for non-combatants.

How do you know that?

 

[moono]

warren;

I havent to be honest. Whats he been saying?

Come on Rachamim, don't keep the man waiting.

I should think that one more tirade on the topic should see you exit the forum. Lol.

TAE;

How do you know that?

He actually knows the opposite is true. The evidence, including confessions of ex-IOF 'soldiers' has been posted at least twice.

 

[TAE]

Well, we know that the israeli government claims that the IDF are not targetting civilians, and we know that individual israeli soldiers have in fact targetted civilians in the past. There's a gap there, and I'm wondering what fills it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Because your the ones who can ban me.

Actually bubeleh, I couldn't ban you even if I wanted to. I'm not a moderator.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How do you know that?

He knows that because it is Israeli military doctrine.

However, his citing doctrine isn't helpful, mostly because doctrine doesn't always reflect policy or actuality.

 

[TomUS]

This atrocity, and others, could have been avoided. Back in April the United States, through its weasel ambassador, John Bolton, blocked a draft statement intended to provide the 'practical solutions' mentioned by the member from America , above. This was the result, TomUS;

I agree Bolton is an asshole, but from the article it looks like he was right in this case. The proposed UN statement appears to condem only Israel while ignoring Palestinian firing of rockets into Israel from Gaza. A slanted statement like this is hardly a practical solution to anything & I can't see that it would have prevented any atrocities.

The radical Palestinian elements that shoot rockets into Israel (even after Israel has withdrawn from Gaza) know that Israel will shoot back and in the process innocents will be killed.

 

[moono]

The draft statement didn't ignore Palestinian resistance at all. The US adopted a policy of demanding ever-and-ever-stronger condemnation of Palestinian resistance in a statement intended to draw a halt to Israeli shelling. The statement was drafted many times but Bolton had, obviously, been primed to kill it.

Had the censure been made it would have helped curtail the Zionist's disproportionate shelling , and we're talking many, many thousands of artillery rounds, and these folk would be alive today, along with the dozens of other innocents murdered by the Zionists under the continuing barrage.

The US prevented that particular 'practical solution', no doubt about it. The US vetoes on censure against Israel outnumber the sum total of all other vetoes by all other States combined. So much for 'practical solutions'. Zionism has your Congress by the bollox.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Fraud and propaganda?" I suppose then that you have never heard that ISM admitted that photos it released were doctored? Never heard of the magical treeline?

"Propaganda" and "ideology" is what that "other lot" has...so goes the auld saying. Of course you cannot bring yourself to admit that your beloved Israeli government is actively involved in the murder of innocent civilians and then engages in smear campaigns against the victims after their deaths.

Demonisation is what you do best.

 

[Cakes]

The radical Palestinian elements that shoot rockets into Israel (even after Israel has withdrawn from Gaza) know that Israel will shoot back and in the process innocents will be killed.

The killing of that family on the beach is tragic and infuriating. The shelling of Palestinian territories - BE IT TARGETED OR "INADVERTENT" - needs to stop being considered an appropriate solution to the Palestinian attacks.

From the outside, it just looks like the Israeli army is meeting out punishment on whichever Palestinians happen to be easiest to target, or whoever happens to be unlucky enough to be in the areas that missiles are launched from. I just can't see how this shelling helps anyone, it retards the peace process, forces instability on the lives of ordinary Israelis and Palestinians, further blackens the reputation of Israel, further drives militant retaliation by Palestinians and is indiscriminately maiming people.

I agree that Palestinian militants share the blame in any deaths that result from shelling in the areas from which they launch rockets. If I were that poor, broken girl who's family had been ripped apart, I would also be angry towards the elements that provoked the attack. But then again, living in an environment like that, and with so much grief to fuel it, her hatred could well lead her to take her turn in the cycle of violence.

The most military experience I have had was when I was a brownie, but even I can see an official programme of shelling is, has and will help no one.

 

[Fez909]

And it's always a whitewash. Go back to sleep Israel, we still have, ahem, "the most moral army in the world".

As if by magic:

The beach explosion was initially blamed on Israeli shelling near the area where a family was enjoying a picnic.

However, an Israeli military inquiry is close to deciding Israel was not responsible, media reports say.

source taken from the story of the latest civilians killed by Israeli gunmen.

This is especially disturbing:

Reports said the first strike was followed soon afterwards by another missile, which hit civilians who had gone to the scene of the first blast.

There were scenes of anger as bloodied civilians were taken to hospital.

Same source. Sounds just how terrorist attacks are usually described to us by the media, doesn't it? However, I doubt the BBC will be describing Israel as terrorist any time soon.

 

[rachamim18]

Warren: I will pm you the words since I do not want to derail the thread, etc.


Moono/TAE: No IDF soldier has EVER claimed any such nonsense. Fringe sites make up quotes attrributed to "anonymous" soldiers as if Israel is a police state and will sielnce them for revealing the truth. Utter nonsense as Vanunu will tell you. Fact is, the IDF gives all new recruits a pretty thorough ethics guide. In it, all recruits are instructed that they must at least question and if need be actually disobey ANY order, direct or otherwise that is clearly a violation of Israeli Law, International Law, or basic human rights. If an Israeli soldier, etc. were ordered to aim for non-combatants you can best believe that others would hear the order. So, even the soldier obeyed it, others would blow the whistle.

Israeli soldiers AS INDIVIDUALS HAVE certainly done so, as in the Taysi/hundall case. however, even there it was found that not even a subliminal policy is in effect. the man admitted to killing Mr. Hundall on his own.


You are also forgetting that the Israeli military has Arabs, Bedua, Ciurcassians, and Druse serving in it. I myself have a Bedua squadmate. Do you think Arabs or Bedua would stand for the military ordering them to kill fellow Arabs based on their ethnicity? It is insane to think that would even be possible.

Cakes: I think you need to research this even before jumping to high handed conclusions. As stated, the family was picnicing amidst Qassam launching sites. Sadly, any outdoor activity in that village is going to be in the midst of Qassam sites.

Fact is, 2 weeks ago in that same village, an armed clan drove militant Qassam teams from the area. why? Because they did not want Israeli shells responding. Ergo, the Israeli policy DOES work.

Fez: A sovereign army responding to armed attacks is not a terrorist entity.

 

[Cakes]

Cakes: I think you need to research this even before jumping to high handed conclusions. As stated, the family was picnicing amidst Qassam launching sites. Sadly, any outdoor activity in that village is going to be in the midst of Qassam sites.

Fact is, 2 weeks ago in that same village, an armed clan drove militant Qassam teams from the area. why? Because they did not want Israeli shells responding. Ergo, the Israeli policy DOES work.

What do you mean by "high handed conclusions"? I did say that the Palestinains who launch missiles share the blame for making victims out of people living near the launch sites.

The Israeli shells tore a picnicing family to pieces, so the Israeli policy DOES NOT work - unless their policy is to kill innocent people as a form of collective punnishment?

 

[TAE]

Moono/TAE: No IDF soldier has EVER claimed any such nonsense.

What are you refering to? I'm talking about soldiers who have been convicted by israeli courts.

Fact is, the IDF gives all new recruits a pretty thorough ethics guide. In it, all recruits are instructed that they must at least question and if need be actually disobey ANY order, direct or otherwise that is clearly a violation of Israeli Law, International Law, or basic human rights. If an Israeli soldier, etc. were ordered to aim for non-combatants you can best believe that others would hear the order. So, even the soldier obeyed it, others would blow the whistle.

Reality would seem to challenge that view. Civilians keep getting killed. Even your allies such as the UK denounce assassinations carried out by the IDF.
Not to mention the british families had to fight very hard to get their loved one's cases even looked at properly.

You are also forgetting that the Israeli military has Arabs, Bedua, Ciurcassians, and Druse serving in it. I myself have a Bedua squadmate. Do you think Arabs or Bedua would stand for the military ordering them to kill fellow Arabs based on their ethnicity?

Europeans have been more than happy to kill other europeans in the past.

Fez: A sovereign army responding to armed attacks is not a terrorist entity.

Would that also count for a sovereign palestinian army?

 

[TomUS]

The shelling of Palestinian territories - BE IT TARGETED OR "INADVERTENT" - needs to stop being considered an appropriate solution to the Palestinian attacks.

So, Israel should simply let Palestinian rockets from Gaza rain down on farms and villages in Israel and do nothing?

 

[newharper]

So, Israel should simply let Palestinian rockets from Gaza rain down on farms and villages in Israel and do nothing?

Well to answer one blanket statement with another.

No, it should merely withdraw to pre-1967 borders, as it is required to do under International Law.

 

[moono]

No, it should merely withdraw to pre-1967 borders, as it is required to do under International Law.

Exactly so.

TomUS, perhaps you'd be kind enough to provide a list of casualties and damage caused by the 'rain' of 'Palestinian' rockets ? Just those rockets for which various resistance groups claim responsibility for though, not the IOF invented ones.
There must be such a list, musn't there ? I mean the IOF have fired thousands of rounds and killed dozens of civilians because of these rockets. They must have caused terrible damage and many casualties. Somebody must have a list, musn't they ?

 

[moono]

Double post.

 

[Cakes]

So, Israel should simply let Palestinian rockets from Gaza rain down on farms and villages in Israel and do nothing?

Do you think the shelling, and the loss of innocent life that results, is the solution? Does it make Israel safer?

 

[TomUS]

TomUS, perhaps you'd be kind enough to provide a list of casualties and damage caused by the 'rain' of 'Palestinian' rockets ? Just those rockets for which various resistance groups claim responsibility for though, not the IOF invented ones.
There must be such a list, musn't there ? I mean the IOF have fired thousands of rounds and killed dozens of civilians because of these rockets. They must have caused terrible damage and many casualties. Somebody must have a list, musn't they ?

I have no such list. Why do you think the rockets are being fired into Israel from Gaza? Fireworks displays? They are being fired in an attempt to kill people & destroy stuff & terrorize. Israel has a right to attempt to stop these attacks by knocking of the attackers.

 

[TomUS]

Well to answer one blanket statement with another.

No, it should merely withdraw to pre-1967 borders, as it is required to do under International Law.

Merely abandon it's capital city & the western wall? Nice idea except that they simply will never do it. Got to be practical here.

 

[TomUS]

Do you think the shelling, and the loss of innocent life that results, is the solution? Does it make Israel safer?

It's not THE solution, but sitting back and allowing continual attacks wouldn't make Israel safer either I don't think. Israel has survived for 55+ years by fighting back against those who would destroy it and slaughter it's people. In the WB Israeli religious fanatics have gone too far and have made Israel less safe. But with Gaza they withdrew and are still being attacked from there.

Does firing rockets into Israel from Gaza make the Palestinians safer?

Sure would be nice to find a way to get both sides to stop the shooting. I don't have an easy answer for how this can be done though.