Employer's change of policy on tattoos and piercings - advice sought!

[belboid]

toby, does the fact that every time you make some comment in here, it turns out to be utter cock not put you off repeating the experience? The information you quote is, at best, years out of date, or just as frequently, plain wrong.

People in here actually ask advice on important issues that can have significant effects upon them. Having someone who doesnt know what the hell they're talking about, coming along and talking out of their arse isn't really a great deal of help.

And for those people, like SoI or Derian, who do know what they're talking about, who actually work with this kind of matter every bloody day, well, you simply waste their time cos they haven't worked out to ignore you yet. Tho, give 'em time.

 

[Soul On Ice]

toby, does the fact that every time you make some comment in here, it turns out to be utter cock not put you off repeating the experience? The information you quote is, at best, years out of date, or just as frequently, plain wrong.

People in here actually ask advice on important issues that can have significant effects upon them. Having someone who doesnt know what the hell they're talking about, coming along and talking out of their arse isn't really a great deal of help.

And for those people, like SoI or Derian, who do know what they're talking about, who actually work with this kind of matter every bloody day, well, you simply waste their time cos they haven't worked out to ignore you yet. Tho, give 'em time.

Belboid - I have actually worked out that tobyjug does appear not to be fully up to speed with current employment legislatation - you say he is talking "utter cock". I would prefer a more technical way of putting it as us trade union regional officials would put it "he is talking shite".

If you read my earlier posts I was quite pessimistic about the issue, but, to my embarrassment I did not pick up on the TUPE as derian did. Having read derian's posts s/he (can't work out the gender from the posts) is clearly knowledgeable about TUPE and has correctly identified the areas that could potentially be argued.

Another thing that an ET will consider is if the employer acted reasonably in all of the circumstances. Banning tattoos and piercings in an extreme sports shop AFTER a TUPE transfer with no real good reason could quite easily be argued as unreasonable and unlawful.

That said, it's clear that folk are too scared to tackle this on their own. To be honest, as I say to union members all the time, the law should be used as a last resort and collective action is best. Tho this depends on every one being prepared to stick their neck out.

 

[tobyjug]

People in here actually ask advice on important issues that can have significant effects upon them. Having someone who doesnt know what the hell they're talking about, coming along and talking out of their arse isn't really a great deal of help.
.

Please your fucking self I have a lot of experience of tribunals and similar and I have won the day at tribunals my union and the CAB said were hopeless.
Based on that a dress code which asks for people who deal directly with the public to have tattoos and piercings (except for one piercing in each ear) not visible whilst they are at work will be found to be pefectly legal.

 

[belboid]

Belboid - I have actually worked out that tobyjug does appear not to be fully up to speed with current employment legislatation - you say he is talking "utter cock". I would prefer a more technical way of putting it as us trade union regional officials would put it "he is talking shite".

humble apologies, i should have realised you don't get where you are today without a well atuned BSD.

Toby - I'm sure you are perfectly well meaning about your comments, but you are also wrong, and offering incorrect advise without any caveats about its use, is plain, well crap really.




bullshit detector

 

[Derian]

Tobyjug - have you been actually reading what I have written? And additionally specifically written to you?

If so, are you alleging that my written advice on this matter is incorrect?

If so, please refer me to the relevant case law in relation to TUPE in order to substantiate your allegation - or withdraw it forthwith.

Thank you.

 

[tobyjug]

Tobyjug - have you been actually reading what I have written? .

Yes, and I am basing my opinion on what actuarially has happened in such cases.
The chances of winning if the company digs their heels in is near to zero.
If people like tilting at windmills they are free to do so.

 

[Derian]

Yes, and I am basing my opinion on what actuarially has happened in such cases.
The chances of winning if the company digs their heels in is near to zero.
If people like tilting at windmills they are free to do so.

I repeat. Are you alleging that my written advice in relation to TUPE is incorrect?

I should also mention at this point that I post under my real name. And I have also made it clear that HR and employment matters are my profession.

I'm hoping that someone out there PM's you with the relevant link to the defamation pages of the FAQs and that you consider carefully before you answer.

Ach, not worth it. Don't bother Tobyjug. I'd hate to see you waste a weekend researching case law on the internet!

 

[belboid]

well - you can have apologies from me Derian, as your BSD is clearly in excellant working order too, rendering my earlier comments superfluous.

 

[Derian]

Belboid - I have actually worked out that tobyjug does appear not to be fully up to speed with current employment legislatation - you say he is talking "utter cock". I would prefer a more technical way of putting it as us trade union regional officials would put it "he is talking shite".

If you read my earlier posts I was quite pessimistic about the issue, but, to my embarrassment I did not pick up on the TUPE as derian did. Having read derian's posts s/he (can't work out the gender from the posts) is clearly knowledgeable about TUPE and has correctly identified the areas that could potentially be argued.

Another thing that an ET will consider is if the employer acted reasonably in all of the circumstances. Banning tattoos and piercings in an extreme sports shop AFTER a TUPE transfer with no real good reason could quite easily be argued as unreasonable and unlawful.

That said, it's clear that folk are too scared to tackle this on their own. To be honest, as I say to union members all the time, the law should be used as a last resort and collective action is best. Tho this depends on every one being prepared to stick their neck out.

Thanks Soul On Ice. Your last paragraph also answers 2 Hardcore's last post (which I missed somehow - sorry 2 Hardcore). Also just adding that the part timers have the same employment protection as the full timers. It is hard to feel confident about sticking your neck out and this is why I personally seethe when I hear this sort of story (from the seeming lack of information and consultation I mean).

Thanks also Belboid. Your comments were really helpful

 

[Derian]

well - you can have apologies from me Derian, as your BSD is clearly in excellant working order too, rendering my earlier comments superfluous.

Absolutely no need to apologise - I thought your observations were really helpful and well timed. I was just trying the patient explanatory approach - which was obviously not working

Ah well.

*goes off to make nice cup of tea*

 

[likesfish]

still think having the entire workforce turn up in suits and ties should make management rethink there ideas

 

[Derian]

still think having the entire workforce turn up in suits and ties should make management rethink there ideas

Bowler hats, and nicely furled black umbrellas would add that finishing touch by way of accessories.

I can visualise it now ..... like a Monty Python sketch in the middle of an extreme sports shop.

I tend to agree

 

[Soul On Ice]

Please your fucking self I have a lot of experience of tribunals and similar and I have won the day at tribunals my union and the CAB said were hopeless.
Based on that a dress code which asks for people who deal directly with the public to have tattoos and piercings (except for one piercing in each ear) not visible whilst they are at work will be found to be pefectly legal.

tobyjug - you may have won an ET that both your union and the CAB said you wouldn't. This does sometimes happen (tho not to me yet, touchwood) for many reasons. ETs sometimes give perverse decision; employers' witnesses sometimes give such crap evidence contrary to their witness statement that the employer's case is made rubbish; unions tend to take cases only if their is a greater than 50% chance of winning, so there still is a chance of it being won.

However you have won your ET (is one or more than one?) it does not make you an employment rights expert. I'd be genuinely interested to hear what specifically your background is in employment rights advice as you don't say.

I don't wish to blow my own trumpet but I'm going to. As a Regional Officer for a trade union, I would place on record that I am reasonably competent practioner on employment rights. I know that I am competent as I am seen by colleague Regional Officers as a useful person to get a second opinion on complex or difficult cases. I given advice on a wide range of employment; I have drafted countless ET applications and discrimination questionnaires; I have represented at the ET; I've worked closely with the union's solicitors on numerous cases and I am give employment law training to union activists.

What all of the above self congratulatory spiel is supposed to demonstrate is that I am competent to advice on employment law matters and also I am reasonably well able to spot those whose knowledge is limited.

From Derian's posts s/he (still can't work out the gender from the posts or the name!!) is clearly well versed in TUPE and other employment matters. At the very least you should give some respect to this.

You make a fair point that many ETs might find that excluding that visible tattoos and piercings in a dress code would be reasonable. However, I would say that the law is always changing, albeit slowly, to reflect social change. 25 years ago wearing a turban would have been seen as contravening a dress code by an ET - now of course it wouldn't.

In any event, the issue here is with TUPE and you don't seem to have addressed that. You claim your view takes this into account but give no case law - can you quote a case that demonstrates where an employer has introduced such a term following a TUPE transfer the ET found it to be lawful. If so I will gladly accept my opinion (for opinion is all it ever can be, albeit based on many years practical experience) to be wrong.

If you can't offer up any evidence I would suggest you refrain from implying that others don't know what they are talking about. F*ck me I'm a trade union official and Derian is on the other side working in HR and we've got similar views on the matter - surely that counts for something.

 

[dylanredefined]

Why would anyone expect people in a surf/skate shop not to have any
piercings & tats .Thought it would be compulosry ? .I could imagine harrods
or some bonds street jewllery shop have a fit but that sort of shop do the owners know anything about their busniess ?

 

[Derian]

Soul On Ice .... HR/Employment is what I do. But I don't work for anyone. It's my own business. I'm not on the other side of the fence - half the time I represent individuals. And I spent many years in a Union.

I regularly handle up to 10 ET cases concurrently, acting for claimant or respondent/s. Basically it's how I make my living.

Tobyjug, I entirely agree with Belboid that your input was probably well meaning. But you do have to be very careful - it's people's livelihoods here.

BTW - girl.

Time to let it rest now? It's Friday and the weekend beckons.....

 

[Derian]

Why would anyone expect people in a surf/skate shop not to have any
piercings & tats .Thought it would be compulosry ? .I could imagine harrods
or some bonds street jewllery shop have a fit but that sort of shop do the owners know anything about their busniess ?

Quite. It's a long old thread.....

 

[belboid]

would a google for `Derian HR` bring you up top of the list perchance?

 

[Derian]

would a google for `Derian HR` bring you up top of the list perchance?

I hope so Nothing to hide here - genuine person. The way that I can contribute to this community is by giving free advice if it's wanted/needed.




And you looked at 12 pages on my website !!

 

[Soul On Ice]

Soul On Ice .... HR/Employment is what I do. But I don't work for anyone. It's my own business. I'm not on the other side of the fence - half the time I represent individuals. And I spent many years in a Union.

I regularly handle up to 10 ET cases concurrently, acting for claimant or respondent/s. Basically it's how I make my living.

Tobyjug, I entirely agree with Belboid that your input was probably well meaning. But you do have to be very careful - it's people's livelihoods here.

BTW - girl.

Time to let it rest now? It's Friday and the weekend beckons.....

The "other side of the fence" comment was tongue in cheek. More often than not it's the intervention of an HR / personnel person that resolve a problem caused by a manager who thinks they know what they are doing. Tho there are some HR folk I've come across who are the son's and daughter's of Satan.

You a girl - not surprised actually cos my experience is the better HR people are female.

You are acting for claimant and and respondents in ETs - guess that gives you a good insight into how to argue your case. I always try and drill into lay reps that they should ALWAYS prepare for case thinking about what they are going to argue AND just as importantly how would you argue it from the other side. Trouble is most reps only want to see their side of the argument and hence don't anticipate what is may come form the other side.

 

[Soul On Ice]

would a google for `Derian HR` bring you up top of the list perchance?

and one of the testimonials says:

"Thank you so much for your excellent advice.It is a relief that with your help we have been extricated from a complicated and potentially expensive TUPE Employment Tribunal involving several applicants and respondents,whilst keeping costs at an absolute minimum for all concerned.We really are most grateful."

Seems Derian wasn't bluffing about knowing about TUPE

 

[Derian]

Not much more to add, agree with what you say. Glad I'm out of the rat race though, and can decide what I do - or not. Not so keen on the overheads such as PI insurance (glances in Toby's general direction). Would love to find a term to describe what I do that doesn't use the word "HR" but can't really escape it.

I guess 2 Hardcore's thread is nearly finished now. Although it can be resurrected if matters change, or something else comes up.

Have a good weekend