Embarrassing if BNP beat left in Glasgow

[ViolentPanda]

It's not centrism. It's distinctly pro-banker and pro oligarch. Centrism is for the mixed economy a la genuine Social Democrat, not banker takeover and corporate welfare.

We're talking about the "centrism" that we've been governed by for the last 12 years, the convergence point of "centre-right" and "centre-left" politics that pleases nobody but those who benefit from the naturalisation of neo-liberal economics.
True political centrism hasn't truly existed for at least 30 years.

 

[CyberRose]

So you'd prefer a piss-weak centrism that sways every which way the political wind blows, a la "new" Labour and the Conservatives?

The very piss-weak centrism that is responsible for the social, economic and political problems that have provided the BNP with the opportunities thy are grasping....

The problem isn't really about being centre or right or left. The problem for this country (and Western liberal democracies in general) is how political parties are funded and electoral pressures.

Money buys elections. And political parties rely on big business for that money. That means all the parties daren't annoy big business too much otherwise the money dries up and elections are not winnable.

For right wing parties like the Conservatives, this isn't a problem cos it fits nicely in with their ideology. For those on the left, like Labour and any other left wing party, it presents a problem - either lean to the right or don't gain political power. Labour was serious about wanting political power, no other left wing party is.

For a left wing party to gain, and hold onto, power, they need to address funding. They need to make it a rule for their party that they do not take donations from big business. But that leaves the question where they do get the required amount of money from to mount an electoral challenge...any ideas?

 

[CyberRose]

i can well imagine uni these days is nothing like the old days where they at least pretended to care on certain issues - now they all seem to just get pissed and go from pub to pub in oh so amusing fancy dress.

Why should students, or anyone for that matter, be required to care about politics? What's wrong if somebody wants to just keep their head down and enjoy their short time on this Earth?

 

[Pickman's model]

i can well imagine uni these days is nothing like the old days where they at least pretended to care on certain issues - now they all seem to just get pissed and go from pub to pub in oh so amusing fancy dress.

as usual, the truth is somewhat different. one result of the government's expansion of higher education has been the decline of student union bars. takings at many su bars have plummeted in recent years, while more students than ever before have taken on part-time jobs to make ends meet while they study:students do not spend all their leisure hours in bizarre costumes on the lash, they're more likely to be found hard at work.

equally, many students do care about a wide range of issues, just as other people do. but it's very much easier for a lame-brain no mark like you to spout shit than it is for you to actually make an effort to inform yourself.

 

[JHE]

I thought the BNP got nowhere in Scotland, the Jocks preferring the SNP's (or even the SSP's) brand of nationalism to the BNP's.

 

[treelover]

'This might provide some of your answer:

BNP: The brown skinned people are taking your money, with the help of posh white poeple.

Left: Remember, it's all about class. Except when it isn't, it's about race. Or maybe about being muslim. Or gay. Or a woman. It's about standing up and being counted, provided when you do stand up you stand up in exactly the same way as I do, not that lot of splitters over there, who pissed us off by publishing a pamphlet on Somethnig Of Great Import and didn't bother to let me us know about it first, thus leading to the Great Xerox schism of 1985 blah blah blah

BNP: The brown skinned folk have taken your money. The posh white people don't care.'



Excellent post KS

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Yep that is good.

The left is pretty dismal. One email group I'm on, that contains people who might know better, still has the "menshevik" bandied around as an insult.

 

[treelover]

who pissed us off by publishing a pamphlet on Somethnig Of Great Import and didn't bother to let me us know about it first, thus leading to the Great Xerox schism of 1985 blah blah blah

I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a few posters on here who were involved in that event

 

[ymu]

This week saw the Friends of Palestine Society sell out at £5 a head, 400 capacity meeting at Birmingham University.

There was no alcohol served and no free drinks promotion, to attract students to this meeting, as was done in student unions in the late eighties and nineties. Didn't work to increase numbers then anyway and whoever thought up that idea in the NUS, should really not be involved in politics at all.

There used to be a Palestinian Society at Brum Uni, after years of struggle. They were initially banned by the university, at the behest of the Zionists, until it threatened to turn into a scandal - then minutes were retrospectively changed to pretend it never happened and the society was finally established. They got so much harrassment they only lasted about 3 years.

The Friends of Palestine Society is a new one - after my time. I'm glad they exist, but it's despite the student body and their politics. Frighteningly right-wing campus, as most of them are these days.

Here's what happened last time Galloway spoke there (from the student newspaper).

Guild Council had in March passed a motion detailing that foreign conflicts could be 'openly debated' but only if 'presenting a balanced discussion', whilst publicity for meetings should be 'limited to notifying potential interested parties, but shall not cover substantive views'.

Under this new Guild policy, BUST'S advert in the last issue of Redbrick had this quote removed by Ali Marchant (VPIA), following complaints from students, and publicity for the event was removed from the basement and guild. In a retaliatory move the flyers were distributed with a stamp of 'censored by the Guild of Students' imprinted over the 'edited' Mandela quote.

Tensions continued to rise in the days leading up to the debate, with BUST'S executive being threatened with 'suspension from the University' were the society to continue 'distributing this material'. In an email to Ali Marchant BUST'S chair, Alex McDonagh, claimed Mr Marchant "was acting above and beyond his authority" and that "this is the latest in a long line of harassment and obstruction. We are strongly concerned about academic freedom on campus."

Seeking legal advice on the validity of the motion, the Guild were advised that the motion was potentially in breach of the 1998 European Human Rights Act which guarantees the right to freedom of speech. The subsequent meeting was permitted to go ahead without censorship, whilst further legal advice was sought by the Guild. Guild President Jon Horan defended the Executive's actions saying they 'unknowingly' acted illegally and that an 'alternative policy will be presented to the next Guild Council'.

http://www.sue.be/pal/press/rb_article2.html

More than half the audience on that occasion were there to heckle.

 

[JimPage]

At the 2007 parliamentary election , BNP beat the best placed left party in 4 out of 8 of the regional lists, so their relative advance at the expense of the left was on the cards, despite the left in activist terms out numbering them by 20 to 1 up here. The united left will still beat the BNP`s vote here- but its a theoretically united left vote only

I predict they will come 6th here, below the Greens and Smeaton, beating either of tories or liberals, but not saving their deposit

 

[JimPage]

More embarrassing then the BNP beating eastablished parties like Labour, Lib Dem, Tory, SNP etc?

Beating the liberals here will not be a shock- they did so in the Euro elections here, but beating tories may well be- they only managed this in 4 council areas in the euros.

 

[butchersapron]

A lot of this BNP to come third talk is pretty transparent labour scare-mongering as well. Get out there and vote for us.

 

[lewislewis]

For right wing parties like the Conservatives, this isn't a problem cos it fits nicely in with their ideology. For those on the left, like Labour and any other left wing party, it presents a problem - either lean to the right or don't gain political power. Labour was serious about wanting political power, no other left wing party is.

For a left wing party to gain, and hold onto, power, they need to address funding. They need to make it a rule for their party that they do not take donations from big business. But that leaves the question where they do get the required amount of money from to mount an electoral challenge...any ideas?

This only applies to the UK political system which is outdated and one of the most regressive in Europe.

Die Linke are managing to get some level of power in regional governments in Germany (whether thats a good thing is up for debate), Plaid Cymru in Wales, I won't use the SNP as an example because they do have the support of a section of big business, BUT a victory for them in this particular by-election might hasten the break-up of the aforementioned system.

Still, Labour will scrape in here.

 

[lewislewis]

I thought the BNP got nowhere in Scotland, the Jocks preferring the SNP's (or even the SSP's) brand of nationalism to the BNP's.

Let's have some perspective, the SNP are challenging for this seat and run the national government, the BNP are looking to hold their deposit...

With the SSP you've definitely got a point.

 

[Andy the Don]

This week saw the Friends of Palestine Society sell out at £5 a head, 400 capacity meeting at Birmingham University.

There was no alcohol served and no free drinks promotion, to attract students to this meeting, as was done in student unions in the late eighties and nineties. Didn't work to increase numbers then anyway and whoever thought up that idea in the NUS, should really not be involved in politics at all.

Palestine, the issue "du jour", very popular with left wing students, of no interest to those who live in sub-standard housing, who's children suffer sub-standard education with no prospects, whom are about to be laid off or see their jobs transferred into the private sector from the public sector with reduced salary and benefits.. I could go on.. But as they say in left wing circles.. "one more push comrades and the working class will follow us onto the sunlit uplands of the revolution under the banner of the one true hard left group-sicle (us of course), by a paper and down with the Zionists and their imperial stooges, I know you live in crap housing with bugger all prospects... but what about the Palestinians.."

 

[frogwoman]

Palestine, the issue "du jour", very popular with left wing students, of no interest to those who live in sub-standard housing, who's children suffer sub-standard education with no prospects, whom are about to be laid off or see their jobs transferred into the private sector from the public sector with reduced salary and benefits.. I could go on.. But as they say in left wing circles.. "one more push comrades and the working class will follow us onto the sunlit uplands of the revolution under the banner of the one true hard left group-sicle (us of course), by a paper and down with the Zionists and their imperial stooges, I know you live in crap housing with bugger all prospects... but what about the Palestinians.."

I know quite a few people living in shit housing who care about the palestinians actually

 

[frogwoman]

the issue isn't the palestinians per se it's the fact that the left can't agree on fuck all, and the general focus on problems in the world to the exclusion of ones at home ...

 

[JimPage]

Let's have some perspective, the SNP are challenging for this seat and run the national government, the BNP are looking to hold their deposit...

With the SSP you've definitely got a point.

Yes, for the BNP saving their deposit is their reasonable target, but for them it`s a start, and progress.

As to the SSP, they are not and never have been a nationalist party, but their decline, and inability to continue to fill the poliitical vaccuum, is a partial cause of the BNP`s modest rise in Scotland.

 

[treelover]

Palestine, the issue "du jour", very popular with left wing students, of no interest to those who live in sub-standard housing, who's children suffer sub-standard education with no prospects, whom are about to be laid off or see their jobs transferred into the private sector from the public sector with reduced salary and benefits.. I could go on..

Actually, i would usually agree with you, the lefts, priorities, failures, etc, but i've been to a fair few palestinian events and part the social evenings have been more 'mixed' etc, than many other similar activities. I care passionately about the Palestinian cause, as i do about the exploitation in Africa such as in the Congo and the ripping off the minerals such as Cobalt, but I despair at the lefts approach: such as ignoring millions here in poverty. I also think many of the left minded people who share a positive internationalism (and that doesn't mean no borders), but who also care passionately about how their next door neighbour fares have given up on the left, for now, at least.

at the moment I simply can't conceive of getting involved in it all again.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A lot of this BNP to come third talk is pretty transparent labour scare-mongering as well. Get out there and vote for us.

Just as one suspects all the usual non-labour left suspects will be preaching.

 

[lewislewis]

Yes, for the BNP saving their deposit is their reasonable target, but for them it`s a start, and progress.

As to the SSP, they are not and never have been a nationalist party, but their decline, and inability to continue to fill the poliitical vaccuum, is a partial cause of the BNP`s modest rise in Scotland.

I can't see how a situation with 2 different socialist left parties in Scotland can ever be sustainable. Obviously there are huge barriers to overcome it, but it would seem like until that is sorted out the socialist left will be an also-ran.

Where has the SSP's old voter base gone? Who do they vote for now?

 

[Davo1]

BNP 'Third' in Glasgow according to BBC.

Charlie Baillie was interviewed a minute ago. Utter Cunt, absolutely pathetic.

Makes no difference, of course.

Still 1000 votes for them if that is the case apparently.

Can't watch. Off to bed.....

 

[Sesquipedalian]

I want to see how many votes Mikey from Big Brother gets.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

I want to see how many votes Mikey from Big Brother gets.

54.


And this is post 54 !

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

fascists finished 4th and lost deposit. Not as bad as might have been, but bad enough for Scotland.

 

[mutley]

over 1000 votes and they beat the combined left vote.

 

[JimPage]

fascists finished 4th and lost deposit. Not as bad as might have been, but bad enough for Scotland.

16 votes off a saved deposit and 60 from third place. if this happenned, that would have been the headline this morning. the sad thing is there are antifascists around the UK waking up and cheering a tory vote for the first time in their lives. sets them up well for a Holyrood list seat for Glasgow in 2011

significantly beating total left vote while a creditable Solidarity vote. SLP lose 98% of their support here since 2005....

 

[The Black Hand]

over 1000 votes and they beat the combined left vote.

That's the combined obvious FAR left vote, there were 3 independents whose politics would have to be looked at a bit more to see whether they were left or right too. I think lots of left people will have voted Labour and the SNP, so I also think you are mistaken.

A further point, despite all the doom and gloom on here, the ultra left rantings and bigging up the BNP. THE LABOUR PARTY STILL MANAGED TO GET 60%!! What does that tell you? It tells me that the general election is going to be closer than you think and the BNP are still a long way from a breakthrough. Certainly in Scotland its impossible imho.

This also tells me that it is not a politics of division (the group/sect/association) and purity that is needed, the ultra left rantings and ramblings are not helpful. What IS needed is @ NEW LEFT politics/movement of popular unity

 

[The Black Hand]

A)16 votes off a saved deposit and 60 from third place. if this happenned, that would have been the headline this morning.

B) the sad thing is there are antifascists around the UK waking up and cheering a tory vote for the first time in their lives. sets them up well for a Holyrood list seat for Glasgow in 2011

C) significantly beating total left vote while a creditable Solidarity vote. SLP lose 98% of their support here since 2005....

A) 'But' & 'ifs' are dreams.
B) I do not think so Jim. I think a lot on the left are not going to give this a second thought, some may even not read about this story (perhaps they should but people are too busy to think about it like that imho)
C) Just beating combined ultra left vote and what about the other independents? There's too much muddying the waters to see clearly here.

 

[JimPage]

A further point, despite all the doom and gloom on here, the ultra left rantings and bigging up the BNP. THE LABOUR PARTY STILL MANAGED TO GET 60%!! What does that tell you? It tells me that the general election is going to be closer than you think and the BNP are still a long way from a breakthrough. Certainly in Scotland its impossible imho.

Would agree that despite Camerons poll ratings, Labour could still get a hung parliament

BNP are near to a breakthrough in Glasgow for the Scottish Parliament. Remember the list system up here will get them a seat if they poll 6% in Glasgow. They also stand a chance of a Glasgow councillor or two as the local elections are under STV up here now

Grim Liberal vote, poor Green vote as well