ELF on CBS News
- Thread starter chilango
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The Old Sarge
Professionally idle
I find it rather ironic that some of the loudest critics of cracking down on ELF, (yes, they ARE considered domestic terrorists) are the same folks that criticise various and sundry elements of the gov for "doing nothing" to prevent 9-11.
Agenda, anyone?
Agenda, anyone?
Our democracy does represent the views of the people. Do some people (the wealthy, the well-connected, the more capable, the smarter, the harder-working, the more-concerned) wield more influence than others? Of course. Sometimes this is for perfectly legitimate reasons (concern, effort, capability), sometimes for reasons less legitimate (connections, etc.). No democracy will ever be perfect. Yet you are saying that so long as democracy remains imperfect, it is "legitimate" to illegally destroy other people's legally-acquired property and legal livelihoods on nothing more than a personal whim. This is preposterous. What, then, is the purpose of laws and the democratic process itself? Shall we all just take firebombs to anything and everything that we don't like, whenever we're feeling cranky? Nonsense!Thora said:
The reason why it is impossible to get a consensus decision in favor of arson is because virtually all sane people think arson is wrong. That is why we the people, through our imperfect yet democratic institutions, have enacted laws attaching severe penalties to those sorts of actions of which the ELF miscreants have been accused.Thora said:
In fact I deplore violence, particularly the huge violence involved in destroying the Earth. Burning SUVs, on the other hand, is 
The Old Sarge
Professionally idle
A terrorist is a terrorist. Killing people is indeed "worse" than destroying property. But it's still terrorism. They even call it terror themselves. They've boasted of it.
The Old Sarge said:
So, if killing people and destroying property is 'terrorism', then what happened in places like Fallujah is also an act of terrorism, isn't it?
As was the war in Vietnam.
Or the invasions of Panama and Grenada.
The Phoenix programme, also in the Far East.
And the various covert and overt mistreatment and massacre of political dissidents in countries ruled by US-backed dictators, like a certain Saddam Hussein.
Or for that matter the support for former Chilean dictator General Pinochet who was, I might add, installed in a CIA-backed coup that resulted in the overt deposal and possible murder of the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED leader, Salvador Allende.
Come to think of it, I can't think of any war that doesn't involve an element of terrorism in some shape or form.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
rogue yam said:
No one is condoning anything. In fact, these jerks are a threat to the environmental initiatives they say they support.
What I'm saying is that there are bigger threats out there to human life than the ELF. Deciocho is responsible for 154 murders in the last four years in California. Funny, they haven't had a mention on the news. How many has the ELF killed? Zippo.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
ETA; shoulda read more of thread....rogue yam said:
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
how the FUCK would you know what is 'sane' and what is NOT, given that you have shown your worldview to be so narrow?rogue yam said:
more germanely, ARE you medically-qualified? no.
are you fit to decide on 'sanity'? no.
so quit the 'sane' bollocks and substitute 'people within the relatively narrow spectrum of my mainstream rightist worldview'.
more honest....
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Personally I couldn´t give a damn about whether these actions are democratic or not. I care about whether they are effective or not. I don´t think the ELF are. Not because of their use of arson,sabotage, violence or whatever but because they have deliberately played the game of the "spectacle" becoming part of the media circus.
someone once said that ecotage should be something everyone can do.
they were right.
someone once said that ecotage should be something everyone can do.
they were right.
chilango said:
IIRC, Michael 'Bommi' Baumann of the German group known as the 'June 2nd Movement' slates some of his contemporaries for playing up to what the media wanted and of being too responsive to media opinion.
And yes, ecotage, and direct action generally, should ideally be something that everyone can do.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Point being the ELF fit into a role that the media and the powers that be love, they play a role ideally suited to the antienvironemntal agenda.
Not because they give anyone a bad name, but because they are an easy stereotype that iconographically doesn´t challenge anything.
Earlier ecoteurs did not, sure later they fell into this trap - but simple, anonymous actions that are not draped in rhetoric or cliched imagery is imo far more effective and harder to dismiss.
The same argument could be made re their methods. Are roaring flAmes strictly necesarry?, You can (so I´ve been told
)stop machines etc. working in many ways that don´t provide stock footage for "terrorist" scare stories.
Not because they give anyone a bad name, but because they are an easy stereotype that iconographically doesn´t challenge anything.
Earlier ecoteurs did not, sure later they fell into this trap - but simple, anonymous actions that are not draped in rhetoric or cliched imagery is imo far more effective and harder to dismiss.
The same argument could be made re their methods. Are roaring flAmes strictly necesarry?, You can (so I´ve been told
)stop machines etc. working in many ways that don´t provide stock footage for "terrorist" scare stories.chilango said:Point being the ELF fit into a role that the media and the powers that be love, they play a role ideally suited to the antienvironemntal agenda.
Not because they give anyone a bad name, but because they are an easy stereotype that iconographically doesn´t challenge anything.
Earlier ecoteurs did not, sure later they fell into this trap - but simple, anonymous actions that are not draped in rhetoric or cliched imagery is imo far more effective and harder to dismiss.
The same argument could be made re their methods. Are roaring flAmes strictly necesarry?, You can (so I´ve been told
There are an entire multitude of ways to sabotage vehicles and machinery that don't require arson, and are safer to do for all concerned.
My problem with arson isn't the destruction of property. I don't have a problem with sabotaging vehicles and equipment at all. But arson will almost certainly put lives at risk. Any large fire, such as some of the ELF's actions, will almost certainly require the attention of firefighters to deal with it. Not only are they risking their lives in some cases, but they are being called away to deal with an ELF fire when there may be another one elsewhere. And a really effective arson, in addition to taking considerable resources and firefighters away from other duties, may well spread to other buildings.
It isn't the ELF's strategy of sabotage I have a problem with, just their use of arson to achieve it.
subversplat
writer of wrongs
Burning out motors (especially modern ones - all that plastic!) is veryThora said:
Much better to thermite the engine block/gearbox/anything else important.subversplat said:Burning out motors (especially modern ones - all that plastic!) is very
In the interests of those planning any DA, maybe an open discussion of methods isn't such a good idea on a public bulletin board?
Best kept for planning meetings and such, methinks.
Just a thought.
subversplat
writer of wrongs
I don't know, it's not as if information about that sort of stuff isn't widely available on the web anyway. I'd liken what I posted to be on par with saying to use citronella spray to sab a hunt rather than Jeyes Disinfectant because of the obvious environmental impact. I'd rather 100 million people knew how to ecologically disable a vehicle, were they so inclined for whatever reason, than for a whole load of excess nasty fumes to get released into the atmosphere.Pilgrim said:
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
subversplat said:Burning out motors (especially modern ones - all that plastic!) is very
Why use thermite when metal filings work just as well. (I know, thermite is pretty to look at).
The Old Sarge
Professionally idle
In Bloom said:
Yes. I read it. Have you bothered to take a look at the situatiuon from a possibly different perspective?
The Old Sarge
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