Elements of German Left to launch new 'populist' movement

Discussion in 'world politics, current affairs and news' started by treelover, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. treelover

    treelover Well-Known Member

    It s coming from Die Linke, some Greens and SPD, and is going to call for limited immigration, fighting on basic issues, will challenge identity politics and moralising, "grub first then ethics". The Guardian is attempting to call it, 'national socialism', (Olterman supports open borders) but much of it it just a return to a materialist form of left wing politics. I wonder how successful it will be.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  2. treelover

    treelover Well-Known Member

    hastag #fairLand
  3. taffboy gwyrdd

    taffboy gwyrdd Embrace the confusion!

    I don't trust the migration line. Also "populism" is very dubious word these days.

    Given what we know about Russian support of parties across Europe (often but not always right wing) it's reasonable to wonder if the leader of the party is considered an agent of influence by Moscow.
  4. mather

    mather Well-Known Member

    Good for them, this sort of thing is long overdue for the left and I can only hope something similar takes hold over here. The sooner ID politics and no/open borders is ditched the better.
  5. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    What has this got to do with Id politics in real terms?

    I can't see why wishing the UK left was more antimigrant is something to look forward to.
    To me this is a worrying turn and just emboldens and gives legitimacy to the AFD
    Mordi, MightyTibberton and littleseb like this.
  6. taffboy gwyrdd

    taffboy gwyrdd Embrace the confusion!

    Class politics should be the umbrella but it's often easier for people with privilige to denounce left ID politics.

    right ID politics on the other hand are all the rage and highly successful
    MightyTibberton likes this.
  7. Fez909

    Fez909 toilet expert

    ID politics are not the same as open borders, so not sure why you've conflated them here. ID politics tries to reduce the importance of class, whereas border controls are all about class.

    If you have free movement of capital without free movement of labour, then labour's bargaining position is weakened. If a poorer county's WC organise better pay and conditions, then capital can easily move to another poor country where 'doing business' is cheaper.

    If labour is able to move with the jobs, this power imbalance is reduced.

    The left should very much be about open borders, IMO.
  8. Idris2002

    Idris2002 Well, there goes the frying pan theory.

    I've been trying to puzzle out some of the stories on the German media sites about this one, and there does appear to be genuine concern on the left about the implications of this one.
  9. Serge Forward

    Serge Forward Well-Known Member

    Open borders is an internationalist position and internationalism is a class position. It's got fuck all to do with identity politics. Funnily enough, the call for closed borders is identity politics of the nationalist variant that clearly puts nation or nationality before class. The working class has no country.
  10. mauvais

    mauvais change has become unavoidable

    Race to the bottom, this. It relies on a lot of IMO very broken assumptions; that a business' presence in (this) country is principally all about low labour costs, that free movement of labour into a country is overall more of a positive for the native WC rather than a means to undermine them, that the individual is better placed & more likely to take advantage of global freedom of movement than a corporation, etc etc.
  11. killer b

    killer b Nostrofuckingdamus

    Just been reading Seymour's article about this, didn't notice Wolfgang Streeck is involved until now...

    Note on moralism | Richard Seymour on Patreon

    I think this paragraph is worth mulling over:

    All free movement is conditional upon a wider policy framework. Which could be about suppressing wages, breaking up unions, intensifying competition and creating precarity at the bottom. In that case, those effects will fall most harshly on migrant workers, and 'free movement' will be conditioned and qualified in such a way as to enhance labour market segregation. Or, it could be about solidarity, maximum union rights, anti-precarity laws, collective bargaining, a high minimum wage which applies to all workers. The 'pull factors' will be radically different in each case, as will the overall class effects. Simply condemning a generic "open borders" position is simply saying very little of substance.

  12. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat hmm


  13. The39thStep

    The39thStep Well-Known Member

    Actually the left should be about driving up the living standards of working people. Free movement of labour has been on the bosses terms leading to a stagnation of wages for those in 'low skilled' jobs.
    I dont quite follow the idea that 'if labour is able to move with jobs then this power imbalance is reduced' who would want to move from the UK to a pooere country to be paid poorer wages?
  14. The39thStep

    The39thStep Well-Known Member

    or simply advocating a generic 'open borders' position is saying very little of substance
  15. Fez909

    Fez909 toilet expert

    That's a very Anglo-centric view.

    But even taking your UK-based example - did wages go down for all working class people? Nope. For the immigrants, their wages went up. Even on the bosses terms, they gained out of free movement of labour.
  16. crossthebreeze

    crossthebreeze Well-Known Member

    Not always as clear as that - was sure I saw stats that showed that in the UK eastern European immigration especially affected previous immigrants who saw the biggest wage cuts. No doubt having "free movement" and the hostile environment at the same time contributed to that. Also all the mess around posted workers and agency workers which has been deliberately used in some industries (completely supported by successive Labour and Tory governments who have blocked any reforms at every stage) to drive down wages without increasing wages for migrant workers.
  17. killer b

    killer b Nostrofuckingdamus

    absolutely - I think (perhaps accidentally) he identifies why in that paragraph: worldwide, immigration policy is used everywhere to suppress wages, break up unions, etc etc, and has been for decades. So it is unsurprising that many people blame immigration itself, not the way it's implemented and managed, for these things. An advocate of open borders needs to be able to demonstrate how things will be different this time, and - perhaps more importantly - how this will work out in a world where almost every other country is making it harder to migrate, not easier. It is something that really requires international coordination, and you can understand how even the most ardent internationalist might look at the current global shitshow and then plump for the simpler option of immigration controls.

    That said, I think controlling immigration is a very short-term response: freedom of movement IMO is necessary and in some ways inevitable, as climate change is likely to make huge swathes of the world uninhabitable over the next century. But I'm also at a loss how anyone could get democratic consent for open borders - in fact, the political currents globally seem to be pointing to a more worrying solution to the question.
  18. The39thStep

    The39thStep Well-Known Member

    Thanks. Not sure if being Anglo centric is a compliment or an insult but suffice to say I am ususally more concerned with what happens in the country where my friends , family and their communities reside. @Acrossthebreeze and KillerB have made soem useful observations and addressed some of the issue I would have said so I wont repeat them. Heres a recent study into what the low paid have had to endure over the past decade or so Millions 'worse off' than 15 years ago There's a number of factors here but over supply of labour will have contributed to stagnation and compression of significants amount or workers into relying on minimum wage levels.
    Riklet, Dom Traynor, mather and 2 others like this.
  19. SpackleFrog

    SpackleFrog Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts

    Looks shite to be fair but then Die Linke hasn't exactly been setting the world alight. Attempt to reboot a failing brand?
  20. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    That’s so shocking that article. That in 15 years the bottom half of the population have seen the average income drop, whilst rents/mortgages have rocketed. Absolutely shocking. It’s no wonder at all that the majority of people want out of the EU and not free movement.
    J Ed, treelover, mather and 1 other person like this.
  21. treelover

    treelover Well-Known Member

    I think its a part of Die Linke, specifically its leader, Sarah Wagenknecht.
  22. MightyTibberton

    MightyTibberton Well-Known Member

    I don't really have the economics to argue a good case either way, but this makes me nervous.

    Economies almost everywhere have stagnated or are struggling. Machinery and tech is making the monetary value of labour (of all sorts, not just manual) fall. There's a lot of UK specific stuff that causes such pressure on housing - not fucking building any houses because everyone who votes conservative plans to retire on the ever-rising price of their house for one. Immigrant and migrant labour must be among the most vulnerable and exploited members of the working class. They shouldn't have fingers pointed at them.

    There are arguments to be had, no doubt, but I hope they're very careful about not playing into the AfD's hands.

    Lovely quote at the end of the linked article:

    "One of the anonymous case studies quoted in the study, a previously “exemplary” union activist who had fought for solidarity with Czech temporary workers, expressed views that crossed over from “national social” to national socialism: “In my view, the refugees have to go away ... I wouldn’t have a problem if they opened up Buchenwald again, put barbed wire around it, them inside, us outside.”"
  23. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    Last I heard on Urban leaving the EU was nothing to do with migration.

    When a million war refugees can turn to right wingers like Merkel and get a cold shoulder from the the 'left' you know theres a problem
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
    Mordi and MightyTibberton like this.
  24. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    I wasn’t on here during Brexit and haven’t read any of the threads so I dunno what other people here think really. It would seem pretty insane to suggest that concerns about immigration wasn’t a huge driving factor in it tho :confused:
  25. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    and if it was a driving factor do you think peoples lower living standards in the UK are a result of migration?
  26. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    In part yes?
  27. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    Hasten to add I don’t think that’s the immigrants fault. They’re coming here to earn more and send back money to their families. We’d all do the same I’m sure.
  28. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    I dont.
    Living standards are drastically down in Spain, in Ireland, in Greece for example - all countries with negative net migration*
    Living standards are down across Europe because of of a decade of austerity to pay off the bankers, in the UK through a government policy to create money for the landed through raising property prices, through a government that exists so that the rich get richer.
    For any party of the left to capitulate to blaming migration at this moment of rising fascism, xenophobia and nationalism is pathetic and dangerous. We'll wait and see what Die Linke actually 'commits' to, but this is a really worrying development IMO.

    (*almost certainly so.... cant be arsed to actually look it up)
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
    Yuwipi Woman and littleseb like this.
  29. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

  30. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    I guess I just assumed that if there’s a bigger pool of people willing to work for the minimum wage or less cash in hand then there’s even less reason to give anyone a pay rise.

    Although I do get that the FAR bigger cause has been austerity.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice