Electrifying the GWR

[berniedicters]

He is cagey cos he has done about 7 x 12 hour days 9(+ on call) helping to sort these things out + normal job

Sorry, Dave, I wasn't having a pop at you - quite the opposite, since you're very forthcoming with all kinds of enticing snippets of information!

Can you all just believe that it can be done and be grateful that electric trains are the way forward

Most tunnels are wet by the way - its a question of engineering and maintenance........itsnot like there are permenant watefalls down the tunnel sides.

*nods* I just thought that the Severn Tunnel was wetter than most. But hey, that's what keeps engineers happy, so why not?

(first round on me when the first leccy rolls into Swansea - numbers limited though)

You're on. Get it coming even further West and I'll buy the drinks

 

[davesgcr]

Free ox roast and distribution of coal to the needy of the parish when it gets to Carmarthen !

(did try that one actually - not yet)

Thanks - nackered but good sense of achivement on today's announcements including Liverpool - Manchester which has been a personal cause for a while !

 

[berniedicters]

Free ox roast and distribution of coal to the needy of the parish when it gets to Carmarthen !

(did try that one actually - not yet)

Thanks - nackered but good sense of achivement on today's announcements including Liverpool - Manchester which has been a personal cause for a while !

You're clearly operating within the loftier echelons of the whole operation

 

[_pH_]

good work dave

 

[Crispy]

Cheers dave I'll buy you a drink if you end up responsible for electric trains to Bristol

 

[davesgcr]

Fair number of people involved - but its Lord Adonis who clinched it by persuading the Treasury - the rest of us just follow and try to get things delivered

Not a civil servant by the way - my epitaph will be "railway operator , lover of books and someone who tried to get things done !"


Just imagine - ELECTRIC TRAINS TO WALES AND THE WEST COUNTRY" !!! WS

 

[cybertect]

Liverpool - Manchester which has been a personal cause for a while !

Built in 1830; I reckon it's about due for an upgrade by now

 

[davesgcr]

Adonis thought that too

 

[Crispy]

(first round on me when the first leccy rolls into Swansea - numbers limited though)

So, the plan has finally be confirmed, but not as far as Swansea.
Can we drink in Cardiff instead?

Also, it looks very much like it will remain a 125mph railway, despite the excellent alignment. Going faster would require re-speccing IEP, installing new signalling, and using more expensive catenary. Seeing as the improved acceleration and dwell times will mean 20 minutes quicker to Bristol, I don't mind too much...

 

[davesgcr]

Hmmm - first drink may be "relocated" to Cardiff now - (Goat Major is a decent enough Brains and tilework iconic-sh venue)

Its not a bad compromise , and infinitely better than just Bristol , - with options for the Valleys too.

 

[Crispy]

Livery for the new electric trains

So much nicer than that horrible pink and blue editor will be especially pleased I think!

Loads of other improvements as the electrification and cascaded rolling stock comes online.

There will be non-stop trains in the peak from Temple Meads to Paddington, taking under 1hr20m. Off peak, these trains will also call at Parkway. Free wifi on ALL great western trains.

More details:
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk...stern-fleet-upgrade-improves-train-facilities
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...tern-franchise-consultation-_web-version_.pdf

 

[teuchter]

Is that really going to be the livery or just a promotional image?

Sad that the HSTs will see out their inter-city lives with the indignity of the awful pink and blue.

 

[Roadkill]

That looks really good.

I'm still sceptical about how comfortable the IEP is going to be, though. It could be great, but I fear it's more likely to resemble the Pendolino or Voyager, with too many seats packed in and therefore too little legroom, not enough luggage space and seats that are too narrow, too hard and too upright for comfort.

 

[teuchter]

That looks really good.

I'm still sceptical about how comfortable the IEP is going to be, though. It could be great, but I fear it's more likely to resemble the Pendolino or Voyager, with too many seats packed in and therefore too little legroom, not enough luggage space and seats that are too narrow, too hard and too upright for comfort.

The IEP isn't going to be tilting, I think?

That's largely the reason the voyagers/pendolinos are cramped.

 

[Roadkill]

The IEP isn't going to be tilting, I think?

That's largely the reason the voyagers/pendolinos are cramped.

AFAIK no, and it's true that Pendolinos and Voyagers are narrow because of the tilting, but trying to fit too many seats into a carriage is going to make a train cramped whether it tilts or not. FGW and GNER did just that when they refurbished their old BR coaches a few years ago.

 

[Crispy]

Is that really going to be the livery or just a promotional image?

This branding already exists in some 1st class HST carriages:

 

[teuchter]

FGW and GNER did just that when they refurbished their old BR coaches a few years ago.

Agreed. But the voyagers are worst because of the added narrowness - if you sit by the window there's not proper space to put your elbow.

It's interesting that in the new Scotrail franchise requirements, things like seats lining up with windows and having plenty of tables are specified. Slightly different situation as these are largely "scenic" lines where the aim is to get more leisure travellers using them (rather than the congested GW). But nonetheless good to see stuff like that being thought about.

 

[Crispy]

AFAIK no, and it's true that Pendolinos and Voyagers are narrow because of the tilting, but trying to fit too many seats into a carriage is going to make a train cramped whether it tilts or not. FGW and GNER did just that when they refurbished their old BR coaches a few years ago.

Best information we have is this: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/3469/iep-train-layouts.pdf
And this photo from the mockup:


Which doesn't look very comfortable

Measuring from the plans, the "airline" seating pitch is 840mm (the old Mk3 was 950, but the seats were pretty chunky). There are rows of seats that don't align with any windows >_<



But I'm sure FGW have their own ideas.

But hey, you'll be sitting in a hard, steep-backed seat for 25 fewer minutes!

 

[Roadkill]

It's interesting that in the new Scotrail franchise requirements, things like seats lining up with windows and having plenty of tables are specified. Slightly different situation as these are largely "scenic" lines where the aim is to get more leisure travellers using them (rather than the congested GW). But nonetheless good to see stuff like that being thought about.

It is, and writing these things into franchises is the only way to halt the trend towards squeezing more and more passengers into the same space. It's easy to see why it's happening - in the end more people per carriage = more revenue per ton of train - but it's not good from the passenger's pov.

 

[Bungle73]

It's easy to see why it's happening - in the end more people per carriage = more revenue per ton of train - but it's not good from the passenger's pov.

Except it doesn't work like that. It's not like a plane or a coach where more seats equals more tickets sold. Train tickets aren't sold for a train (excepting Advances) they're sold for a journey. Having more seats doesn't increase revenue for the train company; how could it? As many people get on a train as get on. Once all the seats are taken, the rest have to stand up....and complain about it. Putting in more seats enables more people to sit down. It doesn't increase the numbers of people on the train.

 

[Crispy]

Except it doesn't work like that. It's not like a plane or a coach where more seats equals more tickets sold. Train tickets aren't sold for a train (excepting Advances) they're sold for a journey. Having more seats doesn't increase revenue for the train company; how could it? As many people get on a train as get on. Once all the seats are taken, the rest have to stand up....and complain about it. Putting in more seats enables more people to sit down. It doesn't increase the numbers of people on the train.

Indeed. I imagine there are many complaints about standing than sitting uncomfortably.

 

[Roadkill]

Except it doesn't work like that. It's not like a plane or a coach where more seats equals more tickets sold. Train tickets aren't sold for a train (excepting Advances) they're sold for a journey. Having more seats doesn't increase revenue for the train company; how could it? As many people get on a train as get on. Once all the seats are taken, the rest have to stand up....and complain about it. Putting in more seats enables more people to sit down. It doesn't increase the numbers of people on the train.

I didn't say it did. The point I was making was that a lot of the operator's costs - track access charges, fuel for diesel trains etc - rise roughly in line with the weight of the train, so maximising the number of passengers per ton of rolling stock being hauled about = higher revenues. Which is fine from the operator's pov but not so good for passengers sitting in hard, upright seats with insufficient legroom and nowhere to put their luggage.

 

[Bungle73]

I didn't say it did. The point I was making was that a lot of the operator's costs - track access charges, fuel for diesel trains etc - rise roughly in line with the weight of the train, so maximising the number of passengers per ton of rolling stock being hauled about = higher revenues. Which is fine from the operator's pov but not so good for passengers sitting in hard, upright seats with insufficient legroom and nowhere to put their luggage.

Um, yes you did:

in the end more people per carriage = more revenue per ton of train

And as I already said more seats doesn't equal more people on the train, just more sitting down.

I'm guessing the number one complaint on busy services is nowhere to sit down, so TOCs put more seats in. I can't seen how in any way it benefits them financially.

 

[Roadkill]

Um, yes you did:

I said more people per carriage; not more people on the train. Point is, if you can squeeze as many people into - say - four carriages as would formerly have been in six, your costs aren't going to rise as fast as your income, for the reasons I gave.

 

[teuchter]

It means that more people can reserve a seat per train.

 

[editor]

Livery for the new electric trains

That does look very swishy. I do like.

If only it had been in (swoon) chocolate and cream!

 

[Crispy]

And as I already said more seats doesn't equal more people on the train, just more sitting down.

Actually, if you extrapolate to extremes, this obviously isn't the case. A single bench seat all the way down each side of the carriage, reserved for one person to sit in, while the aisle is standing only, is obviously lower capacity than one with 50 seats and the same sized aisle. Similarly, if you turned the seats into bar stools and had them 600mm apart, with the same sized aisle, the capacity would be even higher. It's a continuum.

 

[Bungle73]

I said more people per carriage; not more people on the train. Point is, if you can squeeze as many people into - say - four carriages as would formerly have been in six, your costs aren't going to rise as fast as your income, for the reasons I gave.

Putting in a few extra seats per carriage isn't going to give enough extra capacity to do away with a whole carriage.

It means that more people can reserve a seat per train.

But a large proportion of seats on trains aren't reservable, or just don't have reservations. And reservations are free, anyway.

 

[Bungle73]

Actually, if you extrapolate to extremes, this obviously isn't the case. A single bench seat all the way down each side of the carriage, reserved for one person to sit in, while the aisle is standing only, is obviously lower capacity than one with 50 seats and the same sized aisle. Similarly, if you turned the seats into bar stools and had them 600mm apart, with the same sized aisle, the capacity would be even higher. It's a continuum.

Yeah, but I'm talking about in the real world. In the real world as many people get on a train as want to get on it, no matter how many seats there are. A lot of the extremely busy trains would be less busy if people opted to travel on other, less busy, services. But they don't, because they either don't want to, or they can't.

 

[Roadkill]

Putting in a few extra seats per carriage isn't going to give enough extra capacity to do away with a whole carriage.

AFAIK when Virgin introduced the four- and five-carriage Voyagers back in 2003, they replaced seven- or eight-coach MkII sets with no net loss of seats.