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EDM 1583 Remploy Factory Closures

tbaldwin said:
Call yourself a Libertarian....Happy to serve in the British Army and work for the Home Office under 2 of the most reactionary home secretarys ever.....
Wrong, balders. Only you call me a libertarian.
Who is it who uses the expression "hoist by your own petard"
Millions of English-speaking people. That's why it's a well-known expression.
I really love your idea of Socialism though...Unless you aim to give everyone what they want....you wont be able to give as many people as possible what they want.........
Thats great stuff...VP.....

Care to explain exactly what's wrong with a utilitarian approach to politics?

Or are you so tied up in sectional myth that you'e a firm believer in "my way or the highway"?

Like I said, call yourself a socialist?
 
in the Guardian today, a response to the increasingly neo-liberal Guardian support for the closures


Response
We won't help disabled people by forcing them to change jobs


The Remploy factory closures will narrow options for those wanting to return to work, says Ray Fletcher

Wednesday June 13, 2007
The Guardian

Your leader column stated that the recently announced plan to close Remploy factories would "widen access", and asked whether this was really "bad news" for disabled people who want to work (Disability in the workplace, May 28).

It is absolutely correct to highlight the positive steps this government has taken in promoting the rights and inclusion of disabled people in society and in the labour market. The article was also right to point out that "a quiet revolution may have begun, but is still very far from complete". Much more needs to be achieved, though, before we can say that every disabled person who wants to work is in a job.

more

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2101661,00.html
 
There are more 'activists', leftists in London than soft joe, if you can't get support from them, then sadly the left/ activist scene is a joke,

why not have a symbolic occupation, or even a real one, invite the Samba band down to play outside to get public interest,

but also shame the left, if they show no interest, then they deserve it.


The London Remploy factories are looking for an event to bring us to national prominence. Any of you U75ers got any ideas – we’re open to suggestions; and, as crips and spazzers we’ll gratefully tug our forelocks and wring our cloth caps, if any of you normies out there can help us.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Unless you aim to give everyone what they want, you won't be able to give as many people as possible what they want.

Nino and MC5 would like you to carry on with your oh so well thought out posts,whilst others would like you to crawl away and die.:p
So how are you going to try and please us all.:D
 
Irenick said:
And, as you bitch and bite; the members in my Branch fight for their livelihoods. Their shop stewards are being undermined by spineless managers – who even as they stand side by side on the gallows, are assisting the hangman – fucking capos! The company has also resorted to telephoning the families of our more vulnerable members; trying to cajole and coerce them into selling their loved ones jobs for a piss poor peck of redundancy payment.

We’ve a meeting in Blackpool next Tuesday; and, I’m hoping for a positive ballot for industrial action.

The London Remploy factories are looking for an event to bring us to national prominence. Any of you U75ers got any ideas – we’re open to suggestions; and, as crips and spazzers we’ll gratefully tug our forelocks and wring our cloth caps, if any of you normies out there can help us.

;)

Any news on the industrial action? Haven't heard much for past week. I was interviewed about welfare reform recently, made some points about Remploy, but the bastards didn't use any of my contribution :(
 
The today programme pulled a five minute package on Sheffield Welfare Action Network, (SWAN) the WRA, and the role of disablity charities last year: the journo, Kim Catcheside has spent all day with them and was livid. Apparently John Hutton (DWP Minister) had expressively asked for to to be pulled. I do believe there is something funny going on in terms of reporting welfare issues. One journo when asked by an activist said i won't cover it sympathetically as it goes against the public grain, well thats alright then, bigotrys ok. I made an official complaint to the BBC about the lack of coverage, when i finally got a reply, it was arrogant and very defensive.

what to do?
 
tbaldwin said:
Meaningful action, for revolutionaries, is whatever increases the confidence, the autonomy, the initiative, the participation, the solidarity, the equalitarian tendencies and the self-activity of the masses and whatever assists in their demystification. Sterile and harmful action is whatever reinforces the passivity of the masses, their apathy, their cynicism, their differentiation through hierarchy, their alienation, their reliance on others to do things for them and the degree to which they can therefore be manipulated by others - even by those allegedly acting on their behalf.


I wonder how many anarcho types agree with that statement?
And how they think supporting segregated workplaces for people with disabilities fits in to it?

Interesting this post seemed to fly over peoples heads a bit.....
I guess people with disabilities dont really count.
 
treelover said:
Baldwin, are you one of those internet contrarians who exist to disagree on everything, just asking?

Not really. I know what you mean though.. But if you look at my posts you might just gather that i dont like the hypocrisy of lots of people on the liberal left.
I quite like the way you keep raising the issue of disabilities. That doesnt mean i agree with all you say on it...But at least your thinking about the issues.
Somebody like Paulie on here has made all kinds of lazy assumptions, which is partially amusing.
But it is also a bit of a problem if you want an intelligent debate.

As you have said time and again sections of the Liberal left have written off a hell of a lot of people in this country....
Its time to expose the charlatans for what they are.....
( A not very good band of 90s mancs)
 
becky p said:
Nino and MC5 would like you to carry on with your oh so well thought out posts,whilst others would like you to crawl away and die.:p
So how are you going to try and please us all.:D

Still no constructive posts then, becky?

Thought not.
 
treelover said:
Baldwin, are you one of those internet contrarians who exist to disagree on everything, just asking?

Of course he isn't.

He only disagrees with stuff that doesn't accord with his own ideas.
 
ViolentPanda said:
People see your name, know your track record, they switch off.

You often get quite close to the truth without really understanding why...

Sadly a lot of people do allow themselves to be really channelled...
 
tbaldwin said:
You often get quite close to the truth without really understanding why...

Sadly a lot of people do allow themselves to be really channelled...

Your mother should have taught you that in order to patronise people successfully, you need to be taken seriously.

Your problem is that you piss, moan and blather about what a great socialist you are so often that people may find it VERY difficult to take you seriously.
 
“But i dont agree that the best hope for disabled workers is segregated workplaces.”

Quote from tbaldwin 04-06-07 on ‘Remploy to Close 43 Factories’ thread

Let’s inject a little honesty into the discussion. Aren’t most workers ‘segregated’ when they go to work; segregated by the constraints and disciplines of the workplace and job. Aren’t we all limited in the kind of jobs that are available to us; limited by education, qualifications, aptitude, discrimination, skills, colour of our skin, our gender, our ability, or not to kiss arse…

The reality is, as Remploy close factories, Remploy High Street Branches will shoot up. These ‘branches’ are specifically targeted at disabled people. They will offer disabled people “…specialist recruitment and development services…”

Erm…hold on a second. We already have Job Centres and disability employment advisors (DEAs) – for all the good they are; in that, they cannot create jobs; but, only act as a conduit between employers with vacancies and disabled job seekers.

So, let’s get this straight. We’ll close down Remploy factories because they segregate disabled people – forget the fact that the overwhelming majority of disabled Remploy workers choose to work there; and, indeed wish to continuing working in their factories. And, we’ll open up segregated ‘Job Shops’?

Great idea; good thinking; really joined-up, innit.

We’ve found it difficult enough getting work at Job Centres; yet, we could always apply as non-disabled people for jobs; and, take our chances at the interview stage of recruitment. But now, why the fuck will employers, who view me as a potential liability, be arsed to go to a Remploy Job Shop, when to avoid the hassle of a cripple getting through their recruitment process, they simply by-pass Job Shops?

Now, that’s what I called joined-up thinking.
 
oh come on Irenick, you're simply guilty of 'making all kinds of lazy assumptions'. Oh no, that's me instead apparently, acoording to tbaldwin, who reveals himself guilty of arguing the person and not the points in question. cos he's quite clearly such an expert at all this eh? or would despicable charlatan be too kind for his conduct?

i've heard some worrying news about Pathways to Work advisers now being set 60% targets for referring clients to job interviews (with attendent risks of financial sanctions for claimants and disciplinary action for advisers), whereas previously, there was much more autonomy for them to work with people so that sustainble decent quality work was achievable. Now, the approach necessarily will become more coercive, less constructive and basically treating unemployed disabled people as the architects of their own misfortune.
 
Irenick said:
“But i dont agree that the best hope for disabled workers is segregated workplaces.”

Quote from tbaldwin 04-06-07 on ‘Remploy to Close 43 Factories’ thread

Let’s inject a little honesty into the discussion. Aren’t most workers ‘segregated’ when they go to work; segregated by the constraints and disciplines of the workplace and job. Aren’t we all limited in the kind of jobs that are available to us; limited by education, qualifications, aptitude, discrimination, skills, colour of our skin, our gender, our ability, or not to kiss arse…

The reality is, as Remploy close factories, Remploy High Street Branches will shoot up. These ‘branches’ are specifically targeted at disabled people. They will offer disabled people “…specialist recruitment and development services…”

Erm…hold on a second. We already have Job Centres and disability employment advisors (DEAs) – for all the good they are; in that, they cannot create jobs; but, only act as a conduit between employers with vacancies and disabled job seekers.

So, let’s get this straight. We’ll close down Remploy factories because they segregate disabled people – forget the fact that the overwhelming majority of disabled Remploy workers choose to work there; and, indeed wish to continuing working in their factories. And, we’ll open up segregated ‘Job Shops’?

Great idea; good thinking; really joined-up, innit.

We’ve found it difficult enough getting work at Job Centres; yet, we could always apply as non-disabled people for jobs; and, take our chances at the interview stage of recruitment. But now, why the fuck will employers, who view me as a potential liability, be arsed to go to a Remploy Job Shop, when to avoid the hassle of a cripple getting through their recruitment process, they simply by-pass Job Shops?

Now, that’s what I called joined-up thinking.

Irenick OK people are segregated in the workplace by grade pay level etc....But it is not quite the same as having totally segregated workshops for disabled people.

Do you really think the majority of disabled people in this country want segregated workplaces?

I think the problem with a campaign such as yours is that its defensive....But i think that disabled people should have more opportunities and support to get jobs that dont mean being shut off from the rest of the world.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Your mother should have taught you that in order to patronise people successfully, you need to be taken seriously.

Your problem is that you piss, moan and blather about what a great socialist you are so often that people may find it VERY difficult to take you seriously.

Erm so speaks the Great Authority on Urban75 with his Army and Home office training.........
 
tbaldwin said:
Do you really think the majority of disabled people in this country want segregated workplaces?
.

No I don't, but SOME disabled people like the few thousand employed by REMPLOY do need protecting from the disablist bastards most employers and the general population are.
 
tbaldwin said:
Erm so speaks the Great Authority on Urban75 with his Army and Home office training.........

I don't claim to be a great authority. I'm just giving my opinion, based on my experiences.

You, on the other hand, make regular claims to being some kind of socialist, but rarely manifest any of the attributes of any kind of socialist, only the language.
 
chymaera said:
No I don't, but SOME disabled people like the few thousand employed by REMPLOY do need protecting from the disablist bastards most employers and the general population are.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall, trying to get that point through to balders.
 
tbaldwin said:
Do you really think the majority of disabled people in this country want segregated workplaces?.

Do you really think the majority of disabled people in this country want segregated workplaces?

No, I do not; and, that's not the issue here. No one, including disabled Remploy workers, is demanding that the majority of disabled people are calling for segregated factories or workplaces. What Remploy’s disabled workers are calling for is the choice to work in a mutually supported environment.

The majority of disabled workers in the UK have always, and will always earn their living in ‘mainstream’ employment. Remploy factories account for less than 5,000 disabled people, most of whom would be unemployed was it not for Remploy's factory system.

tbaldwin said:
But i think that disabled people should have more opportunities and support to get jobs that dont mean being shut off from the rest of the world.

Yes, and I think that all forms of public transport should be accessible now, not in 2020; I think that every single shop, restaurant, club, pub, theatre, cinema, town hall, council building, civic centre, river boat, ship, aeroplane, stadium, sports arena, hotel, motel, gymnasium, swimming pool, sauna, Jacuzzi and union office should be fully accessible; I think that every single workplace should be fully accessible; and, finally I think that all people’s minds should be open to the difficulties encountered by disabled people.
 
Irenick said:
Oh; alright then (but a translation would be nice).

Trans:
In 2020 we'll probably still listening to excuses about why business can't possibly be expected to bear the costs of making it's premises accessible (i.e. increasing their fucking customer base), and similar wimpery, while a supine govt says "that's okay, we'll give you another 10 years to comply, take your time!".
 
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