EDM 1583 Remploy Factory Closures

[Groucho]

That is very very sad, btw, on another thread, Groucho has called for 'action on all fronts', sadly it didn't include this one.....


Having seen a sheltered workshop in action that was attached to a psychiatric hospital, it was clear as crystal that the people working there loved doing the work and meeting and mixing with peers, but also pretty clear that they would have immense difficulties in coping with coping with 'regular' employment practices, for example.
ices, for example.

Bizarre accusation. I don't recall listing everything in the O/P of that thread that needs to be resisted.

tbaldwin is rehearsing left sounding arguments to support the closure of these workshops - a reactionary position, and one so often used by New Labour Ministers. Why do people fall for it? Integration of disabled people into the workplace is extremely important and a better ideal than specific workshops to employ the disabled butw Whilst some employers are very supportive (and recognise that they can actually benefit from the work that disabled people can do), very many are not supportive at all. The Remploy factories need to be defended because in the here and now they are providing valuable opportunities to work that otherwise would not exist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Jobcentre Plus then?

I think it's worse than that, I do believe he's "third sector".

 

[chymaera]

Integration of disabled people into the workplace is extremely important and a better ideal than specific workshops to employ the disabled .

I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately a huge swathe of the general public and employers are total shithouses when it comes to dealing with disabled people.
A job in a sheltered environment is better than no job and having to deal with the bastards in the "outside" world, (and intregrationist evangelists in JobCentreplus)

 

[tbaldwin]

Oh, I'm not "wondering" at all, I know what he does for a living.

I just wanted to see if the great "authoritarian socialist", who rails against parasites, had the bottle to admit he's a parasite, someone who profits from the integration of "the disabled" into "the workplace", someone who supposedly helps "the disabled" to find work.

Looks like his "bottle" is lacking, doesn't it?

Nope looks like i dont spend as much time as you on urban....As for parasites.....I use the term to sum up those who do as little for disadvantaged people while helping themselves...I have seen plenty of evidence of that sadly...If you think i fit into that category based purely on my job fair enough...Id rather that than people who think that anybody who works with disadvantaged people is some kind of a saint......StBaldwin of Lundon...Doesnt really suit me does it.....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nope looks like i dont spend as much time as you on urban....As for parasites.....I use the term to sum up those who do as little for disadvantaged people while helping themselves...I have seen plenty of evidence of that sadly...If you think i fit into that category based purely on my job fair enough...Id rather that than people who think that anybody who works with disadvantaged people is some kind of a saint......StBaldwin of Lundon...Doesnt really suit me does it.....

Hey, you're the person who was ranting about people working to find jobs for the disabled being "parasites".

Hoist by your own petard, balders.

Again.

 

[tbaldwin]

Hey, you're the person who was ranting about people working to find jobs for the disabled being "parasites".

Hoist by your own petard, balders.

Again.

That would be a good response if i said that everybody who did that type of job was a parasite. But i didnt so its a poor effort VP.

But there are loads of people attracted to work with disadvantaged and vulnerable people cos they are lazy parasites and know very little will be expected of them..

 

[ViolentPanda]

That would be a good response if i said that everybody who did that type of job was a parasite. But i didnt so its a poor effort VP.

Not really. You said (as you always do) "most people".
Nice to know that you're a shining example of non-parasitism in a field of employment where "most people" are "parasites", balders.

But there are loads of people attracted to work with disadvantaged and vulnerable people cos they are lazy parasites and know very little will be expected of them..

Mmmm, "loads of people", and "most people", but not you, eh? You're a beacon of virtue in a morass of parasitism.

Wow, those lucky "disabled" folk, having a hero like you on their side!!

 

[tbaldwin]

The trick is to give everyone what they want,

Kind of sums up your Libertarian philosophy on everything VP " Let them eat Cake"
But who is going to make the cake?

 

[tbaldwin]

Not really. You said (as you always do) "most people".
Nice to know that you're a shining example of non-parasitism in a field of employment where "most people" are "parasites", balders.

Mmmm, "loads of people", and "most people", but not you, eh? You're a beacon of virtue in a morass of parasitism.

Wow, those lucky "disabled" folk, having a hero like you on their side!!

When you were in the Army or worked for the Home Office did you think that you could never criticise people in the Army or the Home Office?
Micheal Howard must have loved you......

In my view there are lots of people drawn to working with vulnerable or disadvataged people cos they want to do something useful.
And there are also loads drawn to it cos its a lot easier than having a real job.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Kind of sums up your Libertarian philosophy on everything VP " Let them eat Cake"
But who is going to make the cake?

Where have I said "let them eat cake", toryboy?

Fuck off, and come back when you've actually got an argument, you sad snide.

 

[tbaldwin]

Where have I said "let them eat cake", toryboy?

Fuck off, and come back when you've actually got an argument, you sad snide.

" The trick is to give everyone what they want"
Soldier boy turned magician...........

 

[ViolentPanda]

When you were in the Army or worked for the Home Office did you think that you could never criticise people in the Army or the Home Office?
Micheal Howard must have loved you......

You're making assumptions, balders.
Pretty much your stock-in-trade, really.

In my view there are lots of people drawn to working with vulnerable or disadvataged people cos they want to do something useful.
And there are also loads drawn to it cos its a lot easier than having a real job.

"Lots" and "loads", eh?
Usually, if there are "loads" of people doing one thing, that usually means theres only a minority doing the other, but in BaldersWorld you can have "loads" and "lots", with no contradiction!!

 

[tbaldwin]

You're making assumptions, balders.
Pretty much your stock-in-trade, really.

Sorry i was forgetting i was arguing with somebody who never makes assumptions............

 

[ViolentPanda]

" The trick is to give everyone what they want"
Soldier boy turned magician...........

Are you really as stupid as you come across as?

What's wrong with trying to give as many people as possible what they want, as long as it's legal and non-harmful?

I'd have thought that someone who professes to be a majoritarian would grasp that, but obviously your majoritarianism is a thin a veneer on your reactionary nature as is your socialism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sorry i was forgetting i was arguing with somebody who never makes assumptions............

I wasn't aware that I'd ever claimed to not make assumptions.

Oh look, I hadn't!

Just so that you're better able to understand, and so that you don't embarrass yourself by making the same mistake again, I said that assumptions are your "stock-in-trade", nothing about not making them myself, just the implication that I don't depend on making them, as you do.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

In my view there are lots of people drawn to working with vulnerable or disadvataged people cos they want to do something useful.
And there are also loads drawn to it cos its a lot easier than having a real job.

Your last sentence would be laughable if it wasn't so insulting. Working with vulnerable and disadvantaged people is easier than doing a real job is it? I'd really like you to come out with bollocks like that around some of the people that i know who do this kind of work - what exactly is your profession that allows you to make such corruscating assessments of the motives of people working in these so-called dossy jobs then? I've asked you once already and you didn't answer so I'd be very interested to hear.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

And in an attempt to get this back on topic, old Gordie yesterday said that all Remploy workers who lose their jobs were guaranteed a job, with the new jobs having better or similar terms and conditions as when employed by Remploy - the fact that this isn't quite true from the information given out by Remploy management wasn't picked up on.

He also said that he will look at concerns and 'I will listen, I will learn, I will involve, I will engage' - let's see whether these are words of substance or spin....

 

[tbaldwin]

Are you really as stupid as you come across as?

What's wrong with trying to give as many people as possible what they want, as long as it's legal and non-harmful?

I'd have thought that someone who professes to be a majoritarian would grasp that, but obviously your majoritarianism is a thin a veneer on your reactionary nature as is your socialism.

erm keep digging VP.....

Did i say there was anything wrong in trying to give as MANY people as possible what they want?

Or did i just laugh at you saying "the trick is to give EVERYONE what they want?

I would have thought somebody who uses the words majoritarian and authoritarian so often might just understand the subtle difference?

 

[tbaldwin]

Your last sentence would be laughable if it wasn't so insulting. Working with vulnerable and disadvantaged people is easier than doing a real job is it? I'd really like you to come out with bollocks like that around some of the people that i know who do this kind of work - what exactly is your profession that allows you to make such corruscating assessments of the motives of people working in these so-called dossy jobs then? I've asked you once already and you didn't answer so I'd be very interested to hear.

You might be Paulie...You might also want my home address and a photo.

But you might think its bollocks a lot of people i know who work with vulnerable or disadvantaged people will agree with what i said 100%.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Why so shy? No need for address or photo, a simple statement about what do you do for a living that allows you to come out with sweeping statements?

Unless you can convince me that you have some credibility in terms of your opinions, one can only conclude that you're talking utterly groundless bollocks and that VP has correctly got your card marked as a contemptible liar.

 

[tbaldwin]

Why so shy? No need for address or photo, a simple statement about what do you do for a living that allows you to come out with sweeping statements?

Unless you can convince me that you have some credibility in terms of your opinions, one can only conclude that you're talking utterly groundless bollocks and that VP has correctly got your card marked as a contemptible liar.

If you think that i'm talking utterly groundless bollocks then fair enough.

Perhaps you have never worked with vulnerable or disadvantaged people or have any idea about the services they get?
Hopefully that is the case....Cos if you have you must be a total prat to ignore the reality of the parasitical nature of many of the people working in those services.....

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I've worked with many disadvantaged people, whether because of where they are living, or because of being mentally ill, or because of having learning disabilities, or because they are claiming welfare benefits.

As a result, I have met many other people who are also working with the people I am working with and whilst there may be the odd exception, most of those people I encounter are doing incredibly stressful jobs to the best of their abilities and striving to achieve the best outcomes for the people they are working with, despite being over-worked (usually), underpaid (generally) and being on the recieving end of reprehensible attitudes from fucksticks who wouldn't know the first thing about carrying out such demanding work.

Hence I find your continuing attempts to undermine this work and the people doing it quite objectionable, based as I see it on your complete lack of ability to demonstrate exactly how it is that you are able to form such judgements. What is it you do again? WHAT IS YOUR JOB? Is that clear enough?

 

[tbaldwin]

Paulie would your arguement crumble if i told you i worked with disadvataged people? And would you be the winner if i told you i was an estate agent?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Paulie would your arguement crumble if i told you i worked with disadvataged people? And would you be the winner if i told you i was an estate agent?

groundless bollocks then

 

[ViolentPanda]

erm keep digging VP.....

Did i say there was anything wrong in trying to give as MANY people as possible what they want?

Or did i just laugh at you saying "the trick is to give EVERYONE what they want?

I would have thought somebody who uses the words majoritarian and authoritarian so often might just understand the subtle difference?

Unless you aim to give everyone what they want, you won't be able to give as many people as possible what they want.

Call yourself a socialist? You haven't got the first idea, have you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

groundless bollocks then

Balders is one of those nice folk who hold on to their prejudices even after they've been shown that those prejudices are baseless.

Ergo, no matter what evidence anyone provides that shows that a degree of "sheltered employment" is desirable, balders' prejudice about "loads of people" in the disability assistance being "parasites" will guide his opinions, and therefore that Remploy is a "bad thing".

 

[tbaldwin]

Unless you aim to give everyone what they want, you won't be able to give as many people as possible what they want.

Call yourself a socialist? You haven't got the first idea, have you?

Call yourself a Libertarian....Happy to serve in the British Army and work for the Home Office under 2 of the most reactionary home secretarys ever.....

Who is it who uses the expression "hoist by your own petard"

I really love your idea of Socialism though...Unless you aim to give everyone what they want....you wont be able to give as many people as possible what they want.........
Thats great stuff...VP.....

 

[tbaldwin]

Balders is one of those nice folk who hold on to their prejudices even after they've been shown that those prejudices are baseless.

.

So who exactly has shown me those "prejudices" are baseless?

Paulie clouseau who probably thinks im an estate agent........

 

[Irenick]

And, as you bitch and bite; the members in my Branch fight for their livelihoods. Their shop stewards are being undermined by spineless managers – who even as they stand side by side on the gallows, are assisting the hangman – fucking capos! The company has also resorted to telephoning the families of our more vulnerable members; trying to cajole and coerce them into selling their loved ones jobs for a piss poor peck of redundancy payment.

We’ve a meeting in Blackpool next Tuesday; and, I’m hoping for a positive ballot for industrial action.

The London Remploy factories are looking for an event to bring us to national prominence. Any of you U75ers got any ideas – we’re open to suggestions; and, as crips and spazzers we’ll gratefully tug our forelocks and wring our cloth caps, if any of you normies out there can help us.

 

[tbaldwin]

And, as you bitch and bite; the members in my Branch fight for their livelihoods. Their shop stewards are being undermined by spineless managers – who even as they stand side by side on the gallows, are assisting the hangman – fucking capos! The company has also resorted to telephoning the families of our more vulnerable members; trying to cajole and coerce them into selling their loved ones jobs for a piss poor peck of redundancy payment.

We’ve a meeting in Blackpool next Tuesday; and, I’m hoping for a positive ballot for industrial action.

The London Remploy factories are looking for an event to bring us to national prominence. Any of you U75ers got any ideas – we’re open to suggestions; and, as crips and spazzers we’ll gratefully tug our forelocks and wring our cloth caps, if any of you normies out there can help us.

Not sure about an event but campaigning on the basis of Jobs not Redundancies. Campaigning for something positive not just another defensive struggle doomed to failure.
Campaigning to point out just how dodgy the stats used by employment agencies often are, would be really good too.