EDL in Nottingham: Information for Action
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The UBA (edl's forerunner) were doing stuff along the lines of the edl years before those fundies. tried their demo And i'm genuinely not sure why the edl formally coming together as a result of that demo is confusing or causes a problem.
But you never mentioned the UBA.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So what? I don't see what your point is. I said that the edl gave the fundies exactly the response they were after (heightening racial tension and encouraging a siege mentality in some sectors of the muslim community). And you seem to be saying but the edl formed after the demo. Yes, and? 
So what? I don't see what your point is. I said that the edl gave the fundies exactly the response they were after (heightening racial tension and encouraging a siege mentality in some sectors of the muslim community). And you seem to be saying but the edl formed after the demo. Yes, and?
Lets agree to just be mutally confused then.
And yes, you have a point in that the beardies probably did set out to provoke people by thier little demo although I am sure that they did not quite anticipate the scenes that followed (the scene of an OAP complete with flat cap trying to break through the line of Police protecting them to attack them is one that will always stay with me) along with the whole EDL thing which sprung up from it.
The Black Hand
Unclean
no, just pointing out the dynamic at the other EDL events is simple, Fascists hiding behind police lines and Antifascists trying to get to them. This time it looks more complicated and runs a risk of hostility, not support, from the public towards antifascists
Are you sure?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Are you being serious.
Forget about the real issues
yup, your notion of the 'real issues' was drivel.
It has the possibility of having an ultra left backed by Islamic extreamists and the military being backed by the nazi's.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
We are in danger of revisiting the 'open up the second front' days of Cockneyrebel et al .
Ironically when the troops are pulled out of Afgahnistan many of us who are against the war will be welcoming them home.
Fascism is a complete abdication of personal responsibility. You are surrendering all responsibility for your own actions to the state in the belief that in unity there is strength, which was the definition of fascism represented by the original Roman symbol of the bundle of bound twigs. yes, it is a very persuasive argument: “In unity there is strength.” But inevitably people tend to come to the conclusion that the bundle of twigs will be much stronger if all the twigs are of a uniform size and shape[.] So it goes from “in unity there is strength” to “in uniformity there is strength”, and from there it proceeds to the excess of fascism as we’ve seen them excercise throughout the twentieth century and into the twenty-first.
Now anarchy, on the other hand, is almost starting from the principle that “in diversity there is strength”, which makes more sense from the point of view of looking at the natural world. [sic] The whole program of evolution seems to be to diversify, because in diversity there is strength.
And if you apply that on a social level, you get something like anarchy. Everybody is recognised as having their own abilities, their own particular agendas, and everybody has their own need to work cooperatively with other people.
Alan Moore Magpie’s book
No, havent been, too far away, but as far as i can see it, it has been fascists v antifascists, with public as bystanders. This one has a risk of involving the public, who may think that antifascists are there to oppose the hoemcoming march.
Its more a point about the poor stewarding i have heard of at previous UAF mobilisations
gamma globulins
plinky plonky
I shall probably wander along to see what the fuss is about.
It's one group of dickheads confronting another group of dickheads for the crack! These people don't know what a fascist is, they are canon fodder, I for one can think of better things to do with my time than shouting Nazi Scum off our streets, but I guess it makes good copy for the Student sorry I mean Socialist Worker!
Silver_Fox
New Member
Jim I think he might have meant this bit:
Which clearly hasn't happened i.e. at most of the events it is the anti-fascists who would have ended up getting a kicking if the police hadn't been there.
Which clearly hasn't happened i.e. at most of the events it is the anti-fascists who would have ended up getting a kicking if the police hadn't been there.
Jim does have a point.
The EDL's best friend the UAF, could be mistaken for being anti the soldiers coming home, which Jim said in one of his first posts should be the case.
Nottingham being a rough and ready place, could see anti fascists being given a kicking of locals .
The EDL's best friend the UAF, could be mistaken for being anti the soldiers coming home, which Jim said in one of his first posts should be the case.
Nottingham being a rough and ready place, could see anti fascists being given a kicking of locals .
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
To state again : The people opposing EDL are not UAF, they will be ordinary local people who have probably never been to a UAF event in their life. It just suits simplistic narrative to say they are UAF, they are students, anti-free speech whatever.
Despite the "antis" not being perfect - "a plague on both their houses" is misguided liberalism. I have seen it most used on message boards where large swathes of smug people have no actual experience of what they are on about.
EDL represent a dangerous, nasty and stupid streak in our so called "culture". They have little to do with opposing extremism (beyond thinly veiled propaganda) and everything to do with not liking Muslims. Period.
Despite the "antis" not being perfect - "a plague on both their houses" is misguided liberalism. I have seen it most used on message boards where large swathes of smug people have no actual experience of what they are on about.
EDL represent a dangerous, nasty and stupid streak in our so called "culture". They have little to do with opposing extremism (beyond thinly veiled propaganda) and everything to do with not liking Muslims. Period.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
There is a danger of being simplistic in analysing EDL and their squalid events. But there are only so many ways of interpreting scores of agressive men singing "you can stick your fucking allah up your arse" and banners saying "no more mosques".
Regardless of what the propagandameisters might say, the main appeal of EDL is clearly a dislike of Islam that wantonly fails to discriminate the multifarious shades of how it is practiced.
Take a look at the average attendee, they are not too likely to be capable of in depth theoligical discussion. They talk about defending "culture" (a key aspect of the fascist lexicon) but again, what is their culture? A gaping black hole of post-industrial nothing. I dont blame them neccessarilly for that, it's complicated and a product of capitalism.
But when all they can do is be nasty about others it's time to call them out for their stupidity and uselessness. When they talk about "culture" what they really mean is that they dont like someone else's culture.
I am astonished at how many people are so befuddled by liberalism that they can't see in-your-face bigotry and hatred for what they are.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
the blind desire to classify the english defence league as fascist has, in my opinion, been something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. as far as i can see, the edl were, at least in their early stages, a rather confused response to what were frankly provocative scenes in luton with the fundies having a pop at the returning soldiers - especially provocative given the hysterical news coverage. the early involvement of some people i believe to have been nf - in the no surrender to aq shirts in the edl / march for england demo - didn't bode well. but where a more reasoned response from progressive forces would have been to engage with some of the elements of the edl, to perhaps detach them from what had the clear potential to be a recruiting ground for the street fash of the nf and bpp, a rather kneejerk response has made any attempt to build bridges with people from this broad coalition almost certainly doomed to failure.
it's important to note that the edl is by no means the first group to tread this path of opposing islamic extremism while espousing patriotism. the uba a few years back tried the same thing. where the left - of whatever hue - could have taken up a progressive patriotism of the sort orwell held, the searchlight-left - the likes of uaf and so on - missed a trick.
what the english defence league are saying clearly strikes a chord with what a lot of people are thinking. rightly or wrongly, many people are not as careful in their differentiation of islamic extremists from the broader islamic community as some may like. but a decision to brand everyone who is in the edl as fascist in my view supposes a level of political education among them which i don't believe they have: but which makes it more certain, as i say, that the people who capture the ear of those turning up to edl demonstrations are more likely to be of the extreme right rather than people who simply turn up because it offers a chance of a scrap.
certainly, a blanket denunciation of all who oppose islamic extremism but who don't have a progressive outlook on which to base this will ensure that future groups of people who organise demonstrations against extremism will be more likely to end up in the right-wing camp no matter where they originate from politically. leaving the initiative for white working class opposition to islamism in the hands of people on the trajectory the edl appears to be taking is, in my view, a dangerous state of affairs. until the left is adult enough to take people like the edl at an early stage as they are without denouncing them as racist or fascist, and to treat with them at that early point in their existence, successor groups to the edl from other parts of society will almost certainly turn to the right.
it's important to note that the edl is by no means the first group to tread this path of opposing islamic extremism while espousing patriotism. the uba a few years back tried the same thing. where the left - of whatever hue - could have taken up a progressive patriotism of the sort orwell held, the searchlight-left - the likes of uaf and so on - missed a trick.
what the english defence league are saying clearly strikes a chord with what a lot of people are thinking. rightly or wrongly, many people are not as careful in their differentiation of islamic extremists from the broader islamic community as some may like. but a decision to brand everyone who is in the edl as fascist in my view supposes a level of political education among them which i don't believe they have: but which makes it more certain, as i say, that the people who capture the ear of those turning up to edl demonstrations are more likely to be of the extreme right rather than people who simply turn up because it offers a chance of a scrap.
certainly, a blanket denunciation of all who oppose islamic extremism but who don't have a progressive outlook on which to base this will ensure that future groups of people who organise demonstrations against extremism will be more likely to end up in the right-wing camp no matter where they originate from politically. leaving the initiative for white working class opposition to islamism in the hands of people on the trajectory the edl appears to be taking is, in my view, a dangerous state of affairs. until the left is adult enough to take people like the edl at an early stage as they are without denouncing them as racist or fascist, and to treat with them at that early point in their existence, successor groups to the edl from other parts of society will almost certainly turn to the right.
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