editor of Hizbullah's main media outlet to attend STWC conf

[TAE]

Apparently, Ibrahim Mousawi the editor of Al Intiqad, Hezbollah's newspaper will be a speaker at the STWC conference on saturday.

Where does he stand on issues like democracy, human rights, equal opportunities, capital punishment, etc ?

For that matter, where does the STWC stand on such issues as armed resistance and war?

 

[treelover]

Lol,, seriously though that is the SWP's modus operandi


Denounced by so many people, Nigel. Must have been like a home from P&P...

 

[kyser_soze]

Aren't Hizbollah rabidly homophobic? I mean sorry if I'm a little bit slow here, but isn't this little better than the OU bollocks with Griffin and Irving? Hizbollah might qualify as the lesser of 2 evils in relation to the Israeli state, but that doesn't make them the good guys, or even especially pleasant of progressive guys.

I mean correct me, but I was under the general impression that they're a fairly conservative lot in terms of social ideas and suchlike...

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Denounced by so many people, Nigel.

I'm actually quite proud of being denounced by that rogues gallery. And I was actually pretty polite and restrained in what I said. Their objection wasn't to tone or hyperbole but to anyone in the anti-war movement having the temerity to be critical of these movements.

The interesting thing about the discussion was that the audience was divided on these issues but the top table and IAWM leaders weren't at all. I got a round of applause from the audience and was approached after the session ended by a whole series of people who said they agreed with me, but equally clearly a lot of people agreed with the SWP's no criticism approach.

 

[durruti02]

hizbollah are khomeni-ites .. so not very nice really .. however they represent a massive amonunt of shia in lebanon based on their social work and their ability to defend 'their people'.. so it goes both ways imho whether he should be invited

but to me though it is all irrelevent bullshit .. student wank .. the stwc ( and lebnaon) are irrelevent to the vast maj of people ..

and you do not and can not influence the state without power .. the stwc have no power . their demos and conferences are meaningless wank .. and sum up again why the left have become marganalised in this country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

p.s. also says they do not do suicide bombings ..

 

[treelover]

One thing i will say, is that although it has pretty broad support, HOPI is linked to the Communist Party of Britain/weekly worker. They musn't be able to believe their luck, as it is growing very fast. Its the same with No Sweat: AWL linked, why can't we have open organisations linked to no political org/sect.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I mean correct me, but I was under the general impression that they're a fairly conservative lot in terms of social ideas and suchlike...

I think they are. Anti-imperialist movements almost always are, as I observed up the thread.

 

[Nigel]

Al Sadr is said to be from Lebanon.

According to wikipedia this lot had a demonstration of 100,000 people.
I've heard from other sources that they supported striking oil workers.

I think that it is right to invite these people to speak, especially the role that these political movements have succesfully played recentely; Hezbollah succesfully resisting Israeli death squads and stormtroopers, the role Al Sadr played in the resistance to American Imperialism. However Socialists should always keep some sort class perspective on this issue, criticising these movements when necessary.

It may be a crude emprical analysis, but Marxist Resistance Movements have shown succesful leadership in the past to National Liberation Struggles: PLFP for the Palestinians against Zionists & their puppet state Israel, INLA in the Struggle for a United Ireland. Recent history has shown though that armed struggle tactics have only lead to, at very best Bourgieous Nationalistic Aspirations, usually with the dominant colonial power still having some sort of influence over the place. Mass movements such as the Intafada could have a greater power of genuine national liberation and a move towards a socialist state!!!!!!

 

[audiotech]

hizbollah are khomeni-ites .. so not very nice really .. however they represent a massive amonunt of shia in lebanon based on their social work and their ability to defend 'their people'.. so it goes both ways imho whether he should be invited

but to me though it is all irrelevent bullshit .. student wank .. the stwc ( and lebnaon) are irrelevent to the vast maj of people ..

and you do not and can not influence the state without power .. the stwc have no power . their demos and conferences are meaningless wank .. and sum up again why the left have become marganalised in this country

Events in the middle east an irrelevance to the vast majority of people is it? How many British troops have been wounded, maimed and killed there? How much of the people's money has been spent there, that could have been spent on the health service, housing, social services etc? How fearful are people here of terrorist attacks do you think? How much is the price of petrol for people these days?

 

[kyser_soze]

Right, so it's not OK for home grown right wing types to speak in the UK, but it is OK to invite over because they are fighting someone that some people don't like?

Nope, my unsophisticated brain is still unable to process the doublethink involved here...

 

[Nigel]

Right, so it's not OK for home grown right wing types to speak in the UK, but it is OK to invite over because they are fighting someone that some people don't like?

Nope, my unsophisticated brain is still unable to process the doublethink involved here...

Thats cos your a fucking idiot!!!!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Right, so it's not OK for home grown right wing types to speak in the UK, but it is OK to invite over because they are fighting someone that some people don't like?

Nope, my unsophisticated brain is still unable to process the doublethink involved here...

I'm sure you can, actually.

Firstly, they're not "right wing types" because they're socially conservative or even outright bigots. That would be a component of rightwing ideology - not the whole thing. I'm sure you see that. Comparisons to certain homgrown rightwingers are specious and generally made in bad faith, because they deliberately miss out everything on which the disagree.

Secondly, as I say, you have a choice. You can disavow everybody whose social views you find objectionable, no matter what situation they are in or what else is involved. Perfectly honourable thing to do and I'll not criticise anybody who does it (I'll criticise them for what they say about people who make other choices, but not for their position itself). But if you do, it means you don't support anybody who is fighting invasion or domination by powerful outsiders, unless and until theycome up with a social programme you can live with. Which, as I say, would mean having nothing to do with most such movements, since normally, the people resisting the domination of powerful nations are a good deal less socially progressive than the people doing the dominating.

 

[invisibleplanet]

so suicide bombs in Israel murdering innocent civilians aren't enough for some anger from the left. believe me, if leftists did protest outside this conference, then i think they would be taken a lot more seriously by the public, etc.

Did Hizbollah suicide bomb Israel? When did that happen?!

 

[cantsin]

That's how I earn a living, too, and I wouldn't disagree.

On the other hand, nobody is paying me to post here, so I'm not actually going to conduct a full audit of Al-Manar TV's programme history and adherence to Reithian principles before calling someone who's very probably a murder-glorifying cunt a murder-glorifying cunt.

ok then , just stick to doing what Treelover/ Knob Jockey + K Soze do , spouting 'anti established left ' ( right wing ) guff whilst not actually knowing what your on about ! good call ...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

ok then , just stick to doing what Treelover/ Knob Jockey + K Soze do , spouting right wing crap whilst not actually knowing what your on about ! good call ...

From the FAQs:

Do not piss about with user names

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm sure you can, actually.

Firstly, they're not "right wing types" because they're socially conservative or even outright bigots. That would be a component of rightwing ideology - not the whole thing. I'm sure you see that. Comparisons to certain homgrown rightwingers are specious and generally made in bad faith, because they deliberately miss out everything on which the disagree.

Secondly, as I say, you have a choice. You can disavow everybody whose social views you find objectionable, no matter what situation they are in or what else is involved. Perfectly honourable thing to do and I'll not criticise anybody who does it (I'll criticise them for what they say about people who make other choices, but not for their position itself). But if you do, it means you don't support anybody who is fighting invasion or domination by powerful outsiders, unless and until theycome up with a social programme you can live with. Which, as I say, would mean having nothing to do with most such movements, since normally, the people resisting the domination of powerful nations are a good deal less socially progressive than the people doing the dominating.

You're completely correct in that I can process the doublethink, and I find it to be some of the best gallows humour ever posted on Urban. My enemies enemy thinking, supporting a socially regressive actor because they happen to be opposed to another regressive actor who we don't like at the moment...has the SWP started copying US foreign policy in supporting anyone who's opposed to people they don't like? Actually don't answer that...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

supporting a socially regressive actor because they happen to be opposed to another regressive actor who we don't like at the moment......

Are you deliberately missing the point or just missing it? I think I set it out clearly enough.

 

[kyser_soze]

ok then , just stick to doing what Treelover/ Knob Jockey + K Soze do , spouting 'anti established left ' ( right wing ) guff whilst not actually knowing what your on about ! good call ...

Hang on a sec...

Would you describe Hizbollah as being a politically progressive group? Would they, for example, be inclined toward dealing with those who disagree with them by discussion and talking out the issues, or by kidnapping or shooting them?

Load of bollocks is what it is.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Right, so it's not OK for home grown right wing types to speak in the UK, but it is OK to invite over because they are fighting someone that some people don't like?

As Donna has pointed out, the politics of Hezbollah and those of the Tories are not the same so simply treating them as the same elides the differences between them. More to the point there is nothing wrong with involving people you disagree with in debate or discussions. The IAWM for instance has repeatedly invited the US and Israeli embassies to send speakers to their events.

My problem is not with allowing Hezbollah to speak. It is with presenting such movements uncritically, endorsing them and hiding disagreements with them. If the IAWM had the Sadr representative or a Hezbollah representative on the platform but also had anti-war people who openly disagreed their politics on the same platform that would be a very different scenario - and one which in my view would be useful rather than negative. Invite these movements and let them speak for themselves - they are significant political players and won't take their ball home because people criticise their politics and record.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

ok then , just stick to doing what Treelover/ Knob Jockey + K Soze do , spouting 'anti established left ' ( right wing ) guff whilst not actually knowing what your on about ! good call ...

Hop it, or I'll have a GSM mast erected outside your gaff to pwn your mind with its deadly fluences.

 

[Andy the Don]

Firstly, they're not "right wing types" because they're socially conservative or even outright bigots. That would be a component of rightwing ideology - not the whole thing. I'm sure you see that. Comparisons to certain homgrown rightwingers are specious and generally made in bad faith, because they deliberately miss out everything on which the disagree.

So because Hezbollah just socially conservative bigots, but not capitalist socially conservative bigots, that makes them ok..?? Am i getting this one correct..??

 

[Donna Ferentes]

So because Hezbollah just socially conservative bigots, but not capitalist socially conservative bigots, that makes them ok..?? Am i getting this one correct..??

Obviously not, no.

Sometimes it helps to reproduce what people are saying rather than what they are not saying.

 

[untethered]

So because Hezbollah just socially conservative bigots, but not capitalist socially conservative bigots, that makes them ok..?? Am i getting this one correct..??

I'm sure it's possible to support a group that wants national self-determination in that aim without implying that you'd support their domestic programme should that aim be achieved. In principle, at least.

 

[treelover]

INLA, eh, now i get a picture of whom i am sharing a board with, and its not nice.

Btw, i'm leftwing but not the sort who shares a platform with killers, mobsters, etc.

It may be a crude emprical analysis, but Marxist Resistance Movements have shown succesful leadership in the past to National Liberation Struggles: PLFP for the Palestinians against Zionists & their puppet state Israel, INLA in the Struggle for a United Ireland.

 

[invisibleplanet]

so suicide bombs in Israel murdering innocent civilians aren't enough for some anger from the left. believe me, if leftists did protest outside this conference, then i think they would be taken a lot more seriously by the public, etc.

Did Hizbollah suicide bomb Israel? When did that happen?!

?

 

[Dhimmi]

I remember liking and admiring Tony Benn, back in the happy days of the
1980s when the bulk of the pacifist left was rather less keen on cosying up to murderous terrorists.

Me too, he was a very good speaker. Now it seems there's two clearly demarked sides and depending on your "side" you pick the murderers appropriate. Maybe this is the reality of the peace dividend, not so much swords into ploughshares as swords into daggers...

 

[nino_savatte]

Btw, i'm leftwing but not the sort who shares a platform with killers, mobsters, etc.

Are you sure about that?

Oh and you don't seem to know much about Hezb'allah either.

 

[belboid]

Btw, i'm leftwing but not the sort who shares a platform with killers,...

you wouldn't share a platform with a former squaddie then?

 

[poster342002]

I see the cod-left's continuing with their defence of the indefensible on this thread as well, then ...

Plus-ca-change...

FFS, why can't you find something PROGRESSIVE to support?! Why is it so hard?

 

[nino_savatte]

Sure, whatever you say..."cod left". LOL!!!