Ecosocialist International Network Meeting Planned - Paris, October 2007

[Das Uberdog]

Being (in general terms) economically collectivist is to be Green in all reality. Reds are already greens, and though I'd like to see some sort of non-aggression pact between lefties and environ-mentals, we're not the same, and shouldn't be.

 

[articul8]

Being (in general terms) economically collectivist is to be Green in all reality. Reds are already greens, and though I'd like to see some sort of non-aggression pact between lefties and environ-mentals, we're not the same, and shouldn't be.

Historically, it's been perfectly possible (indeed usual) for self-designated "Marxists" to that the growth of state controlled industry is an end in itself, as the income it generates can be spread equally between the workers and raise their standard of living.

Personally, I think that you can succesfully base a critique of productivist bias in the later Marx, on the basis of a humanist reading of the whole project (along with writing by people like William Morris, Adorno, Marcuse and Raymond Williams). But it's by no means an 'inevitable' part of all socialistic thinking.

I've heard recent "Marxists" quote Trotsky that the superiority of socialism in the post-revolutionary period could be measured in terms of iron and steel. It's that kind of crass positivism/instrumentalism that the Left needs to ditch for good.

 

[butchersapron]

Being (in general terms) economically collectivist is to be Green in all reality. Reds are already greens, and though I'd like to see some sort of non-aggression pact between lefties and environ-mentals, we're not the same, and shouldn't be.

Is it? Like the USSR was? Like China's state controlled industries are? What do you mean by 'economically collectivist' here? Like state owned and planned industries are elsewhere? What's the common red/green economic collectivism that we're talking about?

 

[Das Uberdog]

ec·o·nom·ics [ek-uh-nom-iks]

–noun 1. (used with a singular verb) the science that deals with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services, or the material welfare of humankind.
2. (used with a plural verb) financial considerations; economically significant aspects: What are the economics of such a project?

col·lec·tiv·ism

n. The principles or system of ownership and control of the means of production and distribution by the people collectively, usually under the supervision of a government.

When I say economically collectivist, I mean what I say. Communism is an economic system, based around the collective ownership of the means of production. And no, I obviously do not think that means via the State.

 

[butchersapron]

You think the greens *and* the reds are communists?

Are greens already by definition reds or just reds already greens?

Are reds the only true greens?

 

[chilango]

Being (in general terms) economically collectivist is to be Green in all reality. Reds are already greens, and though I'd like to see some sort of non-aggression pact between lefties and environ-mentals, we're not the same, and shouldn't be.

That-s either nonsense, delusion or wishful thinking depending on yer POV.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Recent article

IV Online magazine : IV391 - July-August 2007
Environment crisis


WHY ECOSOCIALISM TODAY?

Joel Kovel



Homo sapiens has been contending with its effects on nature since Paleolithic days and the first great extinctions wrought by hunting bands. But it was not until the 1970s that these became experienced as a great ecological crisis threatening the future of the species. The modern environmental movement was born in that moment, with its Earth Days, green parties and innumerable NGOs signalling that a new, ecologically aware age had arisen to contend with the planetary threat.

The optimism of those early years has now quite faded. Despite certain useful interventions like greater recycling of garbage or the development of green zones, it is increasingly apparent that the whole mass of governmental regulations, environmental NGO’s and academic programs has failed to check the overall pace of ecological decay. Indeed, since the first Earth Day was proclaimed, the breakdown in crucial areas such as carbon emissions, the loss of barrier reefs and deforestation of the Amazon basin has actually accelerated and even begun to assume an exponential character.

...

http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1307

 

[Fisher_Gate]

And a view from britain

Socialist Resistance is changing its political programme, perspectives and public profile towards being an anti-capitalist, ecosocialist organisation. This is to make explicit a change in our perspectives that has been underway for at least a year and now needs to be signaled publicly. At the core of this change is our contention that free-market, privatising neoliberalism has over 20 years arrived at a new and deadly phase – what we call ‘savage capitalism’.

This text below is printed in the September issue of the paper. It’s an edited version of a longer document and explains why now only a socialist response that centrally addresses the environmental crisis is adequate to the current period.

savage-capitalism.pdf

http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/20...sistance-is-changing-its-political-programme/

 

[Das Uberdog]

You think the greens *and* the reds are communists?

Are greens already by definition reds or just reds already greens?

Are reds the only true greens?

Greens are in general economically collectivist - but they are not Reds. Please pay attention. They are economically collectivist because collectivism is ecologically the most sustainable form of human cohabitation. Reds are greens as a by-product of this but not because of it, as Reds shouldn't concern themselves with the environment and enforcing collectivism to sustain it rather than justifiying collectivism's ideals and benefits (i.e. control of means of production). We are concerned with people, not the environment.

There's a severe danger we'd lose our focus joining in with the 'mentalists for whom the fight against pollution and capitalism is more of a fight for a worldwide outbreak of conscientiousness for our planet - relying heavily upon personal and general social sacrifice. People are already alienated from the system - asking them to give things up for it won't work.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

First reports here:

http://another-green-world.blogspot.com/2007/10/william-morris-lives-he-is-organised.html
http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/international-ecosocialist-encounter/

And just for D_U's benefit, the SWP did send a representative.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

There'll be a chance to debate the issues at:

Wednesday October 10
London Socialist Resistance/Green Left joint public meeting

Confronting the Climate Change Crisis by Building a Global Ecosocialist Movement
Ian Angus, editor of the blog Climate and Capitalism

7.30pm, Indian YMCA, 41 Fitzroy Square
nearest tube: Warren St

 

[mk12]

When I say economically collectivist, I mean what I say. Communism is an economic system, based around the collective ownership of the means of production

Greens are in general economically collectivist - but they are not Reds.