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Economic meltdown - more "order out of chaos" from you know who?

Again, "traitors" means those who betray their country. That is not a loon motif. It is a plain as your nose fact.

As for "order out of chaos" - in this context that would mean some degree of the crisis being engineered to the elites benefit. There is plenty of evidence towards that, including the terms of the bail-out bill and banks behaviour since, that you have not spoken to.

Feel free to discuss the issues by all means, but dont go out on a limb or anything if youd rather hurl reactionary and misplaced insults.

Please, you don't do yourself any favours by denying the connection - are you going to brazenly deny the use of the term 'ther traitors' or 'order out of chaos' by loons in the US?

As i said earlier, fine if you want to do this, just be honest about it. A quick google of your favolured terms + any 911 related term makes it pretty clear. If you demand honesty, then i tell you, be honest.
 
Please, you don't do yourself any favours by denying the connection - are you going to brazenly deny the use of the term 'ther traitors' or 'order out of chaos' by loons in the US?

As i said earlier, fine if you want to do this, just be honest about it. A quick google of your favolured terms + any 911 related term makes it pretty clear. If you demand honesty, then i tell you, be honest.


I am familiar with the fact that 911 skeptics often call their government "traitors".

It doesnt matter though because the US government are proven traitors for stuff unconnected with 911.

So, if the "loons" call the government "traitors" then they happen to be ok in that regard because the government has betrayed the people.

Do you get that now?

Are you going to speak to the issues or continue to indulge in semantic pedantry?
 
NWO = New World Order, a pathetic bid for power, by an overgrown baby.
NWO = Nature World Order, part of NUO, Nature, Universal Order, always wins out in the end. Makes us wee humans seem a bit pathetic when looked at it this way.
:p
 
I've made the point, how the frig could i have missed it?

Please pretend you've not tried to inject loon-juice into the crisis though.
 
I've made the point, how the frig could i have missed it?

Please pretend you've not tried to inject loon-juice into the crisis though.

The elite are looting us. They threatened martial law if they were denied the opportunity.

The only question is the extent to which it is a co-ordinated looting or an opportunist one. If it is opportunist how would that explain the terms of the bailout?

You may choose to venture an opinion on these questions. "loon" neednt come into it.
 
Ah here we are again, happily I dont mind repeating myself.

Dont join all the dots. You appear keener to make order out of chaos, via an oversimplified worldview, than the elites do. Powerful people have power, this comes as no shock to anybody. The suggestion that the crisis was deliberately engineered, is a serious claim that requires specific evidence, rather than generalisations about powerful people being corrupt and betraying the interests of those with no power.

Sure we can say that the current system had flaws in it which have brought about the crisis. We can say that some people with power should have known better, could of seen it coming. We can look at the bailouts and see how it favours certain people more than others. We can see injustice and get angry about it.

But is there anything to be gained from demonizing and scapegoating? Can we really lump all the people with power into a single group with a specific agenda, and expect to be taken seriously? Is there even any point demonising powerful people, will it wake up a single person who somehow missed all the specific individual injustices and horrors that happen all the time because of the way humans organise, seize and use power?

And I complain again about the tendency of some who are understandably cynical about mainstream lies, to run straight for a new lie, one which is full of specific strains of American anti-federal right wing militia types. Oh how I weep at those who may point left a little or a lot, but end up as strange bedfellows with those who lurk on the right, at least in part due to a desire to oversimplify, vilify, or not want to bother with the dull details of economic and political issues. Sure, what the left and the right have in common is that neither side is governed by people who represent them and do what they want, but this is perhaps one of the few areas where I am glad of this! I mean, oversimplified wordviews and kneejerk reactions are one of the phenomenon that allow some of the elite to justify their role to themselves, doing whats best for the masses because the masses are ignorant, we know whats best for you etc. Whilst I take a dim view of such notions of democracy, and hope never to give up on the idea that nearly all humans can be rational, sensible and informed if given the opportunity, this is not helped by these sorts of threads.

It is interesting to consider whether certain crisis could be manufactured. Certainly they will be managed in a way thats supposed to keep pretty much the same order of things, but this crisis in particular will probably show just how much powerful people do not always get along. Right now they need to show solidarity, but I expect as the consequences hit the real economy hard in the coming years, we will see world order become more chaotic.
 
The elite are looting us. They threatened martial law if they were denied the opportunity.

The only question is the extent to which it is a co-ordinated looting or an opportunist one. If it is opportunist how would that explain the terms of the bailout?

You may choose to venture an opinion on these questions. "loon" neednt come into it.

See that martial law issue pisses me off. Its been made perfectly clear what it actually meant, to continue to use it in the way you do is misleading and surely just a cheap attempt to get heat on the evildoers?

I dont understand why you think the bailout terms suggest something other than opportunism. The reality is likely that government & business knew things were very bad so they had to do something, to reassure a lot of people whose behaviour was affecting the market. Sentiment. Given that we live in an unfair world, and the aim is to prop up the system, the cure is going to resemble business as usual, with the winners being the people you would expect, eg bankers. So a mix of opportunism and business as usual, which doesnt tell us all that much about the causes of the crisis.

However, its also true that allowing the banks to collapse, whilst opening a very large window of opportunity for change in this world of ours, would have very bad short to medium term consequences for nearly everyone, and if governments had let that happen, people would feel even more betrayed.

Some rich peope are hurting more than others right now. Some of the Russian oligarchs have been almost wiped out.

Irresponsible welfare and safety nets for the rich, whilst the poor are asked to take the pain and be responsible, is a bad thing and may well sponsor a heck of a lot of hate and unrest in the years to come. But if you want to turn it into a simple story with some obvious evil villains, need a bigger motive for the conspiracy. Give it a while and Im sure some will conclude that it was done deliberately to save the planet from climate change, as growth of most kinds was fundamentally incompatible with the energy and climate issues we face, and the masses had not been won over by Jonathon Ross and Graham Nortons pleas on Live Earth to flush the toilet less.
 
What loon shit? The loon shit that leads you to connect the current crisis with 'order out of chaos' and 'the traitors' - not the mainstream stuff. That's th stuff that you should stop reading.

Naomi Klein's 'Disaster Capitalism' is similar to 'order out of chaos'. She's no loon...?
 
Naomi Klein's 'Disaster Capitalism' is similar to 'order out of chaos'. She's no loon...?

Is it? I havent read it in full but I got the idea that it was about siezing the opportunity that chaos brings, to re-order things. Sometimes the original crisis may be manufactured, other times its just opportunism. Wasting our time on fingerpointing and drooling over why something happened, rather than looking in detail at whats being done in the aftermath, plays into their hands, and sounds central to her ideas about disaster capitalism.

So applying this to the financial crisis, I am still waiting to see the detail of what will be done. The bailouts were a short-term thing, the restructuring of glabal financial rules & institutions, which has been talked about in lofty terms but little detail so far, is where the action is.
 
Oh and I think that Blair speech after 9/11 is good example of what she is saying 'the kaleidoscope has been shaken, lets reorder things before the pieces settle' to paraphrase Blair slightly, fits like a glove.

So yeah I get it now, how 'order out of chaos' could be a term used to describe what she's describing. And I obviously have more time for such detailed theories than some vague generalisations about evil elites.

Thats why I get so annoyed by stuff that is often described here as loony. Its so close to how I see the world, yet just manages to miss the point it should be focussed on - not outrage and surprise that there are orders in this world, or that powerful people seek to shape them, but the detail of how they are shaped, and what shapes we'd rather see instead.
 
Naomi Klein's 'Disaster Capitalism' is similar to 'order out of chaos'. She's no loon...?

What is the books argument?

And, please, note my argument isn't about the words order out of chaos, but the phrase 'order out of chaos' and 'the traitors' just google these with any 911 relevant terms to see what i mean and to see what taffboy means but is scared to come and publically say.
 
My mate the Loon, earlier.

240px-Common_Loon.jpg


*gets coat*
 
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